Daughters of Lilith

[truepenny]

In response to pdcawley, on the subject of Jadis/the White Witch, the Lady of the Green Kirtle, and Adam's first wife.


The White Witch ... well, here's the bit in TLTW&TW:

"... isn't the Witch herself human?"

"She'd like us to believe it," said Mr. Beaver, "and it's on that that she bases her claim to be Queen. But she's no Daughter of Eve. She comes of your father Adam's--" (here Mr. Beaver bowed) "your father Adam's first wife, her they called Lilith. And she was one of the Jinn. That's what she comes from on one side. And on the other she comes of the giants. No, no, there isn't a drop of real Human blood in the Witch."
(TLTW&TW 77)

So the Witch is a kind of stepsister to the Sons of Adam and the Daughters of Eve (and a Wicked Stepsister, too!). We get rather less about Jadis's origins in The Magician's Nephew (although, parenthetically, what's up with Charn being the city of the King of Kings (TMN 59)? Because it always starts Handel's Messiah playing in my head, and that's just wrong.), except for the bits about the destruction of Charn. I've become extremely interested in Jadis's sister--wishing, like Ramandu's daughter, that Lewis had bothered to GIVE HER A NAME!--but that's rather like trying to be a chameleon and live on air. He still intends Jadis to be the White Witch ("the Queen, or the Witch (whichever you like to call her)" (TMN 67)), and the bit about the giants is still there: "'Hardly human' was what Digory thought when he looked at her; and he may have been right, for some say there is giantish blood in the royal family of Charn" (TMN 69). But the part about Lilith has softly and silently vanished away. (And, speaking from a purely writerly perspective for a moment, it would be as easy as pie to have Jadis brag about it.)

There's a throwaway bit in The Silver Chair about the Lady of the Green Kirtle being "a wicked Witch (doubtless the same kind as that White Witch who had brought the Great Winter on Narnia long ago)" (TSC 200). That, coupled with the Hag's sinister remark in Prince Caspian: "Sweet master doctor, learned master doctor, who ever heard of a witch that really died? You can always get them back" (PC 165), induces the gratifying but implausible speculation that the Lady of the Green Kirtle IS the White Witch's sister, brought back by someone who knew whatever it is the Hag knows. I'm in love with this theory now, although it's fairly obvious it's not what Lewis meant (although Jadis's sister DOES seem--from Jadis's extraordinarily biased perspective, of course--to have traits similar to the Lady's). It's just so tidy, and besides, don't Wicked Stepsisters always come in pairs?

---
WORKS CITED
Lewis, C. S. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. The Chronicles of Narnia 1. 1950. New York: Collier Books, 1970.

---. The Magician's Nephew. The Chronicles of Narnia 6. 1955. New York: Collier Books, 1970.

---. Prince Caspian: The Return to Narnia. The Chronicles of Narnia 2. 1951. New York: Collier Books, 1970.

---. The Silver Chair. The Chronicles of Narnia 4. 1953. New York: Collier Books, 1970.

Comments

[othercat.livejournal.com]

//Coasting in from a friendsfriends list//

I always had a Thing for the White Queen's sister. Growing up with an extremely delusional and very powerful sister capable of making her delusions real (or at least believed) must have been terrifying.

I've had a plot bunny for a long time, for a story where the Sister is entering the city not because she thinks she's one and conquered Jadis, and not because she thinks that Jadis would never, ever use the Unspeakable Word (or whatever the spell was called that destroyed Charn)...but because she *knows* Jadis is going to use the word, and it would be better to destroy the world, than let Jadis use the world as her toy.

Not sure if the Sister might be The Lady of the Green Kirtle, but then, it's been years since I've read the book.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's insanely implausible that the Lady of the Green Kirtle is Jadis's sister; it was just a toy to amuse my brain while awake far too early on a Sunday morning.

Reading The Magician's Nephew this time, I was trying to figure out whether the sister's motives might have been pure. Stripping away all of Jadis's interpretation of her sister's actions, the only thing that actually argues against it is Jadis saying her sister used magic first, when they'd agreed not to. And that could be a lie--a theory which bothers me only because Jadis doesn't seem to bother with lying until after she's eaten the forbidden (unless you have permission) fruit. She doesn't need lying; she's Jadis, Queen of Queens and the Terror of Charn, and she doesn't care enough about what anyone else thinks of her--and certainly hasn't anything resembling a moral qualm--to bother with that kind of self-exculpating lie.

Also, since Jadis's sister, like Jadis herself, is one of the last daughters of the House of Charn, it's actually a little hard to imagine her as being good. But, then again, not being as bad as Jadis does leave one plenty of gray to work with.

[penmage.livejournal.com]

This is absolutely not a source to rely on even in the slightest, but my first encounter with Narnia, when I was probably about 5 or 6, was the BBC Narnia movies. I grew up on those movies - probably the one and only time in my life when I let a movie shape my vision of a book.

In any case. In those movies, the White Witch and The Lady of the Green Kirtle are played by the same person, which always sort of vaguely connected them in my head.

And, you should know - these Narnia posts have driven me to reread the Narnia books again.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

In those movies, the White Witch and The Lady of the Green Kirtle are played by the same person, which always sort of vaguely connected them in my head.

I only ever saw The Silver Chair; I was so bitterly disappointed in it for failing to capture anything of how I envisioned the book that I made no effort to see the others.

But that's an odd casting choice. One wonders what prompted it.


And, you should know - these Narnia posts have driven me to reread the Narnia books again.

"My work here is done," she said, and vanished mysteriously into the shadows.

I'm glad my posts have driven you to reading them, rather than driving you away from them. I must be doing something right. *g*

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

Okay, see if you can guess who's working from old memories of the books rather than the books themselves. Thanks for that pointer.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I went looking for online information about Lilith (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/origin.html), and found this: she is one of most powerful and oddest female figures in Hebrew myth - much of which, of course, both Christians and Muslims have taken and adapted for their own.

She and Adam were created at the same time, it says in most versions of the Lilith myth: but Lilith was not Adam's equal. Eve was created out of Adam to be Adam's equal: Lilith was formed from scum/filth.

Lilith is often linked with the Serpent in Eden (which is or may be the authorial/mythical link between the Lady in the Green Kirtle and Jadis, though I'm reluctant - after C.S.Lewis's own strictures on the subject - to say that this is what Lewis must have been thinking of).

(She's also, by what amount to back-flips among otherwise orthodox literalists (http://www.psyche.com/psyche/lex/qaheen.html) deemed to have been the mother of Cain. Cain was bad, see, and you can't have a bad son from a good mother...)

Lilith fascinated me quite separately from C.S.Lewis (and even from George Bernard Shaw): the version of the Lilith myth I first came across was that Lilith was expelled from Eden for the unspeakable sin of not wanting always to lie beneath Adam when they had intercourse: she claimed equality with him, and was promptly kicked out.

In the BBC movies

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I never saw all of them. I saw TLtWatW, and was disappointed, as I always have been, by the failure to translate Lewis's vision into visuals: we need a Peter Jackson for Narnia, we really do. I saw most of TSC, but had to leave early to catch my train. I did like Tom Baker as Puddleglum.

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

scum/filth, dirt, what's the difference? Looks to me like she was created from the much same stuff as Adam, sounds pretty equal to me.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

The elderly lady curator of the Orthodox Jewish Museum in Athens (who was clearly getting a huge kick out of having a captive audience of American students) told us that Adam had three wives: Lilith, Wisdom, and Eve. Lilith was, sure enough, given the boot for wanting to be on top during sex, and I can't remember what she said happened to Wisdom, because it always gets conflated in my head with Neil Gaiman's version in "The Parliament of Rooks."

I hadn't heard before that anyone had tried to make Lilith Cain's mother, although I can see the attraction.

I hoard trivia like a small hoarding creature with shiny things. Thank you!

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

See, this kind of thing is what I've been trained to do over the last *cough*eleven*cough* years as an English major. It's reflexive. Also fun. If this was what academia was like, I wouldn't be preparing to haul ass out of Dodge ASAP.

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

I'm just staggered by the speed of your rereading. But I've never really learned to skim stuff. Gill (my wife) is a phenomenally fast reader though (she once got sent on a speed reading course and her reading speed at the start of the course was faster than the reading speed of some of the others at the end. Amazingly, her reading speed increased fairly dramatically as a result of the course, but she doesn't like reading at that pace).

Me? I've done no real litcrit since O levels, and I don't think we really had the life experience to do a good job on the stuff we covered. After that it was all Maths, hard science and sf/fantasy reading in my spare time. Doing this is exercising mental muscles I didn't really realise I had.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

I just read insanely fast. It has been a source of amazement and despair to family and friends since I learned how to read at the age of three. And rereading is always faster anyway.

I think I was a senior in college before I really got the hang of literary criticism. It went gradually from alien (when the concept was introduced in high school) to foreign to strange to special to normal to habitual to automatic. And then one day I realized I'd forgotten how NOT to do it. And now I can't read anything without having the machinery whirring away in my head. I can't read things that don't measure up to a certain level of competency with English, just for an example. Which, overall, I think I have to call a net gain.

Re: In the BBC movies

[penmage.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love Tom Baker as Puddleglum - it's one of the brightest parts of that movie.

Had I not grown up on those movies, I probably wouldn't love them as I do. And, they're making new Narnia movies (www.narnia.com), for better or for worse. The site doesn't have much info.

[penmage.livejournal.com]

I also baffle people with the speed of my reading - I learned to read when I was three, too. Haven't met many others, though :).

The Narnia rereads are going swimmingly - much thanks.

like Turkish Delight

[(Anonymous)]

Hey there. I was directed over here via Jen's LJ, and just had to delurk long enough to say that your analytical deconstructions of the Narnia series got me worked up enough to start hunting for Narnia fanfiction. So - thanks!
Deepa D.

Re: like Turkish Delight

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Wow. Um, you're welcome. Or do I mean thank-you? Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed the posts.

[ayelle.livejournal.com]

Hi there. I was ranting in my journal about my frustration with the discussions in my Children's Lit Fantasy class, and a friend linked to your journal, suggesting that I look at your memories for some real, intelligent discussions of some Fantasy classics. I read all the Narnia posts (since we're doing TLTW&TW next week) and the first TDIR post. I must say, I am just blown away.

Your criticism is excellent, your background knowledge impressive and your analyses compelling (whether I agree with it or not). You make me think, make me want to join in -- though I imagine these discussions have been over for some time, and I'd certainly need to do some rereading first! Anyway, thank you. More than anything else, I am reassured to know that even if discussions in my Fantasy class remain disappointing, real, intelligent literary criticism of ChL fantasy classics is being done out there somewhere!

Re:

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

I am so very pleased you like these essaylets. Although it's true that the discussion itself took place quite some time ago, I'd be happy to talk about the books some more. Always happy to talk about books, frankly, and children's/YA fantasy more than most.

I'd also love to hear more about the class you're taking. What's on the syllabus? How is fantasy being defined? Obviously you're deeply discontent with it--where have things gone off the rails? As a fantasy writer when wearing one hat and a ABD in English lit. when wearing the other, I'm always fascinated by the way the two things just stubbornly refuse to mix.

King of Kings

[johnwcowan.livejournal.com]

Think ancient Persia: "King So-and-so, Great King, King of Kings, son of So-and-so" was the template that allowed the decipherment of Persian cuneiform.