genre and narrative question

[truepenny]

I think that I don't understand Westerns.

We've been watching a bunch of them recently*, and they all feel plotless to me, aimless. One thing happening after another instead of an actual plot arc.

As an example, The Magnificent Seven frustrated me intensely, because the only character who had any kind of a story was Lee (Robert Vaughn), and it felt to me terribly wrong that he simply died with the other designated "unimportant" five, leaving Yul Brynner and Steve McQueen to ride off statically into the sunset together.

Likewise, The Quick and the Dead is the only one of these movies that didn't feel aimless. It had a tight, coherent plot which I understood and responded to. But I also have a sneaking suspicion that by the standards of the genre, it's not a very good Western.

Obviously, because many of the movies we've been watching are acknowledged classics of the genre, what feels to me like plotlessness is a feature, not a bug, so I'm putting the question out there: what is the function of plot in the Western and how does it work?

---
*Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969), Dead Man (1995), The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (1966), The Magnificent Seven (1960), The Quick and the Dead (1995), The Wild Bunch (1969)

Comments

[renenet.livejournal.com]

Many of the films you've been watching are certainly acknowledged classics of the genre, but they may not be classic *examples* of the genre qua genre. This list is full of late period masterpieces, many of which are actually *messing* with the genre conventions (in various ways that I'm not entirely qualified to describe, not having seen them recently), and I'm sure that the plot issue plays into that.

In very broad terms, the central conflict of a classic western was a fairly straightforward morality tale — good vs. evil — and the plot was a series of action scenes that played out the conflict and resolved with the triumph of the good guy. But that's not the type of western you've been watching. You've come in at the last act of the western genre pageant, and it may not entirely make sense without the first five decades of background.

But I am several hours past my mental expiration point this evening, so I offer you an article rather than an answer: The Western: An Overview (http://www.imagesjournal.com/issue06/infocus/western.htm) by Gary Johnson, from Images: A Journal of Film and Popular Culture (http://www.imagesjournal.com/index.html)'s feature In Focus: The Western (http://www.imagesjournal.com/issue06/infocus.htm).

[oracne.livejournal.com]

What she said!

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was going to respond to this but realized I haven't seen The Magnificent Seven, only The Seven Samurai, which was enough for me.

Also, I entirely failed to engage with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid as a Western. My mother had been saying the funny lines to me for my entire childhood, so I sat there thinking "Mom had the timing on that one better." And the other reaction I had to it was that it was a failed, failed, frustrating, failed poly movie. So. I have no useful experience of Westerns.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I couldn't deal with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid because I'd read the script first, and the timing was funnier and much more Yiddish in my head.

The only classic Western I've seen, I think, is The Man Who Shot Liberty Vallance, which I remember liking, but then I'm predisposed to like films featuring Jimmy Stewart.

[heresluck]

Heh. A bunch of those are on our list, but we've been ignoring dates and grabbing whatever comes to hand. Looks like we've been going about it entirely backwards. (The whole westerns thing got started *because* we watched Dead Man and The Quick and the Dead, nearly a year ago now, and wanted to rewatch Unforgiven but wanted some background before doing so.)

If The Quick and the Dead is the one with Sharon Stone, I couldn't finish watching it.

Really? Wow. I liked it a lot, albeit more in a "that was really interesting" than a "loved it loved it loved it" way. It's on my to-be-vidded list.

As is Dead Man, actually, which also tilts heavily towards interesting rather than appealing; it's a beautiful movie, though, both because of Johnny Depp and because the scenery is indeed a character. So is the soundtrack, which is either a plus or a minus depending on how you feel about Neil Young's wacked-out instrumentals.

[heresluck]

It might just be my Leonardo diCaprio thing. Every time I see him onscreen I have to resist the urge to shout "You're late for Algebra II!"

I get that. I think I would be more annoyed by Leo if I'd seen more of the movies he's been in; he seems to spend a lot of time grossly miscast and/or entirely out of his depth. But I think he's wonderful in What's Eating Gilbert Grape (more Johnny Depp!), and I think he's very well cast in The Quick and the Dead: talented kid who thinks he's the hero but isn't and gets in way over his head. He's *supposed* to be annoying, so from my POV the potential annoyance factor worked for him rather than against him.

As for Dead Man: It's worth seeing, and given that you know about 500 times more about Westerns than I do (and thank you for passing along some of that knowledge, by the way!) I'm curious what you'd think of it.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

HIGH NOON is not only well-plotted, but takes place in real time. (I don't know of any other Western that does.) It's the first movie that would come to mind when trying to recommend something tightly woven: the theme and plot are inextricable, there's not a wasted moment, and the haunting score is based on a single tune, "My Darling Clementine." However, while it contains all the archetypal Western elements, it's so finely compressed and spare that it's more "the archetypal Western" than anything really representative of the genre as a whole, if you know what I mean.

THE TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE is more loosely plotted, but it does have one: Three men go to find gold and stop trusting each other. It's really a character study and an atmospheric look at paranoia, claustrophobia, and sleep deprivation out in the desert. Everyone remembers Humphrey Bogart, but Walter Huston's performance is also brilliant and strange. It's a classic, but not really a typical Western either.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

I think all the best westerns are atypical westerns. My favorite is Hang 'Em High, one of Clint Eastwood's post-spaghetti westerns. It's one of those new-guy-in-town movies, except the new guy is hanged in the first scene (wrongly, and not to death). The remainder of the film is his getting back on his feet and going after the men who hanged him. I like its meditation on law, justice and revenge; but what I really like is Clint Eastwood in full controlled rage.

I should not fail to mention The Searchers, which is a standard John Ford western that subverts its own type. Instead of John Wayne chasing down his niece, kidnapped by Indians, and righteously rescuing her with maximum carnage, it is John Wayne chasing down his kidnapped niece fully intending to kill her (whether to put her out of her "misery" or as a race traitor, it's hard to tell). This movie gets double points for casting Natalie Wood as the niece, but loses some of those points for dull subplots to fulfill some of the standard western expectations.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, I've seen High Noon and The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, both when I was about eleven. I remember the real time tension of High Noon, but mostly what I remember about The Treasure of the Sierra Madre is Humphrey Bogart's magnificently creepy performance. (I had a huge Thing for Humphrey Bogart in my early teens, so that's not surprising.) I would like to see both of them again--perhaps we'll do that as part of this little cinematic self-education course.

yes indeed

[opalturtle.livejournal.com]

You've got a great list there. I didn't really like The Quick and the Dead. I haven't been terribly impressed with many modern westerns I've seen. The new High Noon was ok and Purgatory was actually pretty good. . .but that's about it that I've liked.

Don't forget The Cowboys. Laura Dern said in an interview that she caught so much flack for her dad's role in that movie when she was growing up. :P Great movie, even if it makes me cry.

Yep

[opalturtle.livejournal.com]

There's a new(ish) version of High Noon with Tom Skerritt (I think) and some other folks I don't remember. It was ok.

I liked Purgatory - 'course, that could just be because I like Sam Shepard, too. :D

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Following up on the genre-splitting idea ...

Is there a reason a "buddy picture" can't be a Western? Or a vigilante/horror movie? What are the generic markers that say what is and isn't a Western? I suppose my completely untutored guess is "guys on horses with guns in big landscape," but again is there something I'm missing?

Re: Revisionist Westerns

[kate_nepveu]

I've seen most of _High Noon_ and that's it, so my genre knowledge is very sketchy--but I put the Mel Gibson/Jodie Foster _Maverick_ down as a caper movie, in my head. Form of a Western, content of a caper movie, maybe?

Re: Revisionist Westerns

[kate_nepveu]

And then Will Smith and Jackie Chan continued the comedy theme . . .

(Oh, and _Open Range_ came and went [imdb].)

Okay, one more question for you and then I'm done.

Are you familiar with Stephen King's Dark Tower series? At least at the start, it seems to me "classic" western, though the artist and I think some of the characters tends to think of the main character as Eastwood. (I'm going to be re-reading from the start when the final one comes out and was wondering if I should watch Westerns beforehand for that cultural context.)

Re: Revisionist Westerns

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Thank you SO VERY MUCH.

[brithistorian.livejournal.com]

I have to second everything renenet says here about you coming in toward the end of the genre conversation in westerns, and second the recommendation of the Gary Johnson article.

I also endorse the list of films that redredshoes provided. I think you'd be best off starting with Stagecoach, the watching some of the Roy Rogers or Gene Autrey "singing cowboy" westerns (it doesn't particularly matter which), then move on to the later movies on the list, particularly El Dorado, which is my favorite western of all time. At that point, the things you've already watched will make more sense - they are taking apart the standard western which had been built up over the previous half century and putting it together again in new ways.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Good question. Maybe the answer will explain why Firefly sucks so much.

[renenet.livejournal.com]

And the phrase "them's fightin' words!" seems appropriate here, given the topic at hand.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Firefly is visibly a "Western in space". This is intrinsically a stupid idea, and Joss Whedon was unable to overcome the basic stupidity of the concept.

[cija.livejournal.com]

He did a whole hell of a lot better than Gene Roddenberry managed, though.

I have a theory, just now formulated but very dear to me, that people who don't like Firefly shouldn't like Zenna Henderson's People stories either. I'd be interested to see if I'm right.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

He did a whole hell of a lot better than Gene Roddenberry managed, though.

Irrelevant.

I'd be interested to see if I'm right.

Do a poll! *grin* FWIW, I quite like Zenna Henderson's "People" stories, those I've read, though she does go a bit horribly pretentious at times.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

I was rather underwhelmed by Henderson (I didn't find her until my twenties, though--I think if I'd read her when I wasw fourteen or thereabouts it would have been a whole different ballgame), and I adore Firefly.

Dunno what that does for your theory, but I offer the data point.

Westerns

[dmsherwood53.livejournal.com]

Me I take them (Ford's) as a celebration of a certain type of Male Individuality (a Man's gotta do what ....) and its tragic doom as civilisation spreads from the East. Other tropes are the wide open spaces spaces thingee and well the nessesaty (& near impossibility) of bravery tho that ties into the Male Individualism thing. A woman could easy be chilled by lots of this. Woman are seriously periferal(unless their one of the boys even then they rend to be slapped down). Plot even axtion aint the point its a Mythic Image.
Why does Firefly I think it couldn't decide what it was really about besides it was a bit too cosy. Buffy managed to make you feel that any one of the main character could reaaly die. Also the focus was off

Re: Westerns

[kate_nepveu]

What do you think of the female characters in _High Noon_?

Re: Westerns

[dmsherwood53.livejournal.com]

Been 20 years since I saw HIGH NOON. There are Strong Characters in Westerns but generally they walk 2 steps behind the Men(Yes I know Katherine Hepburn made a couple of WESTERNS) as far as Women are strong in Westerns they are as supporters of the social fabric there's no place for the sucessfull rebel except in a spoof like PALEFACE-Yes there was CALAMITY JANE but she was cute.
In Ford's Westerns, which are pretty much pardymatic,anyway there is much to be said of the drunkan statement made at a student's party I once went to- In Western's if your male being ruthless chance-taking and with a Buffy 'Rules are for other people' attitude its a ticket to sexual success admiration of your peers at the least a nobel death if your female its a ticket to a very sore ass.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm not by any means a fan of Westerns in general, but I do use Unforgiven as one balance point of my "crunchy bits" lecture, and it's one of my favorite movies. It's also got a far more internal arc than the movies you;re talking about--

--one feature of Westerns in general is that they don't have an internal arc. Or, rather, as a genre, thier internal arc is about refusal to change in the face of overwhelming pressure to do so. In other words, their arc is the opposite or the epiphany/coming of age arc common to fantasy.

FWIW

[larryhammer]

That, I think, is the key.

---L.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

I disagree -- Hang 'Em High is about the main character changing his attitude towards capital punishment, over the long course of the movie. The denouement of The Searchers is the same (albeit last-minute), with Ethan Edwards's attitude toward his niece.

Your thesis describes High Noon, and a lot of the duel-type westerns, but I don't think it is a required feature of the genre.

M7

[oracne.livejournal.com]

Also, The Magnificent Seven is even more of an oddity because it's really a remake of The Seven Samurai. So the aesthetic is Japanese rather than Western American. What's scary is how easily the situations scanned together.

A Bug's Life

[opalturtle.livejournal.com]

A Bug's Life by Pixar/Disney is a play on the Magnificent Seven/Seven Samurai as well - little village of ants who have to harvest food for grashoppers or get killed, one lone ant goes to find help and comes back with:
1. Butterfly
2. Caterpillar
3. Walking stick bug critter
4. Flea one
5. Flea two
6. ladybug
7. unless there's somebody I forgot the Dave Foley ant who goes to find help counts as the seventh.

I find that vastly amusing. Old plots never die - they just get recycled.

Re: M7

[oyceter]

Ditto A Fistful of Dollars as a remake of Yojimbo.

I watched most of The Last Samurai with westerns in mind because of that.

It's a really strange cross of aesthetics, but then, Kurosawa also loved John Ford movies and was influenced by them as well.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

What amazes me about The Quick and the Dead (Sam Raimi version; I know there's a different movie with the same title out there) is that half the people I've talked to think it is a dull western retread; and the other half (yours truly included) see it as an hilarious parody of western conventions.

I could not see that movie and then watch Gladiator with a straight face, for example.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

I couldn't really watch Gladiator with a straight face anyway, although I did not disgrace myself the way I did watching Troy.

I loved Raimi's The Quick and the Dead, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with its Westernness or lack thereof. It told its story in a way I understood and could respond to. But, no, clearly it's not taking itself very seriously. The premise is much too self-conscious for that.

[oracne.livejournal.com]

Have you seen Blazing Saddles?

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Yes. Also Support Your Local Sherrif, Paleface and Son of Paleface. And Destry Rides Again. But these, like High Noon and The Treasure of the Sierra Madre mentioned above, I watched when I was between eleven and thirteen. It's been a while.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Damn. Cannot spell. Sheriff, not Sherrif.

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

(found via a link to a link)

The Magnificent Seven (and the less-well-done Battle Beyond the Stars) are remakes of Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai). I highly recommend that you see it.

Other people have already mentioned Silverado, which film I adore.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

As a complete tangent, have you ever heard Jackson Browne's song "Sergio Leone"?

Lyrics here:

http://www.lyrics007.com/Jackson%20Browne%20Lyrics/Sergio%20Leone%20Lyrics.html

other suggestions

[(Anonymous)]

She Wore a Yellow Ribbon is interesting because the hero succeeds by skillfully avoiding carnage, not by causing it. True Grit has a very young woman as the center of the piece. Crossfire Trail also has a strong female character. My very favorite is the little-seen but utterly charming Seven Faces of Dr. Lao; I've never seen or even heard of anything that crossed Western and fantasy so seamlessly ... Mazal

Also

[(Anonymous)]

I also meant to mention "Tell Them Willie Boy Is Here" with Robert Blake and Robert Redford. It's a good example of revisionist Westerns (in which it is no longer obvious who the good guys are) ... Mazal

[franzeska]

Hmm... I thought I replied to this, but maybe not.

I adore The Quick and the Dead in all its goofy glory, and I do think it's typical of a certain kind of Western. It's basically the ultimate gunfight movie. It feels like more happens because it covers about twenty times the number of tense scenes as a normal Western (due largely to being a parody). Every single character is oh-so important, colorful, and larger than life.

Seven Samurai is about the end of a way of life. The whole point is that they all die except for the ones who always live long enough to see everyone they know die. I assume the Magnificent Seven movie is much the same, though I haven't seen it.

Some Westerns revel in the existence of a frontier and use it as a place for us to escape to mentally. Others mourn the passing of the frontier.