one more question, because I cannot keep from flinging myself upon this sword

[truepenny]

15. [which has the distinctive feel of a final exam question to it] It has frequently been observed that Aristotle's harmatia is poorly translated as "tragic flaw," especially as currently understood, as a character defect that flaws the hero -- that a better restatement of what the old Greek was getting at is that a tragic hero's virtues are also his flaws. In other words, what made, say, Oedipus a strong king (his decisiveness, his sense of justice) are exactly those qualities (impetuosity, personal righteousness) that got him in trouble. In the wrong context, any virtue can be a vice.

It has also been suggested that a comic hero's flaws are his virtues -- that is, the difference between tragedy and comedy is the direction of irony. Do you agree with this statement? Why or why not?

Okay. Point the first: Aristotle's Poetics is not a definitive pronouncement about Greek tragedy, even though it gets used that way--and it makes a dog's breakfast of plays like Antigone and Medea, not to mention, god help us all, Hamlet. Commentators on the Poetics have estimated that Aristotle's schema would have worked for maybe 10% of the total output of the Greek tragedians. So, to begin with, there's no point in trying to apply any of Aristotle's concepts to anything much wider than Oedipus Tyrannos itself.

Point the second: hamartia does not mean "tragic flaw." It means "error." Or "sin." In Oedipus's case, his hamartia ARISES from the qualities of his character, but hamartia is not intrinsic. It is an action.

So this question is unanswerable because its premises are flawed.

On the other hand, I would agree that irony can be either comic or tragic, depending entirely on how it is deployed. Sometimes, it can even be both at once.

Comments

[sovay]

So, to begin with, there's no point in trying to apply any of Aristotle's concepts to anything much wider than Oedipus Tyrannos itself.

I'm not sure it works in even that case. Oedipus is, in the end, actually quite successful at what he sets out to do at the outset of the Oidipous Tyrannos: rid Thebes of the plague. He's a man who's built to find out answers, to riddles, to identities, and eventually he does, no matter how much of a shambles that makes of his personal life. I am more inclined to think that Aristotle was talking completely through his hat when he wrote that chapter of the Poetics.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Another perfectly valid interpretation. I have no fondness for Aristotle and am not inclined to defend him.

I would argue that a lot of Greek tragedy comes from stories in which doing the right thing has terrible consequences: Oedipus Rex, the Oresteia, Antigone. But there are also Greek tragedies that don't have the slightest interest in "the right thing": Medea, Thyestes. The point of Troades is that it doesn't matter WHAT you do, whether you try to do the right thing or not. Agamemnon is about the inevitable consequences of doing something you know is wrong.

I think the greatest disservice Aristotle--and even more so his followers--did drama was to promulgate the idea that all Greek tragedy can be understood under one rubric.

[larryhammer]

He's a man who's built to find out answers, to riddles, to identities, and eventually he does, no matter how much of a shambles that makes of his personal life.

Exactly -- the virtues misapplied thing.

---L.

[larryhammer]

I have also seen the theory that tragedy arises from the conflict between two value systems, between two ways of looking at the right thing to do. As indirect evidence, it's pointed out that tragedy is commonly written only in times and places where value systems are changing, with old and new in conflict. This works well with, say, Eumenides and Antigone, or even Hamlet, but it strikes me as a very external-conflict approach.

---L.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

I always thought that if Jocasta had at some point said "You know, there's this weird prophecy about my second husband," a lot of grief could have been avoided.

[larryhammer]

Heh. In Euripides's Phoenician Women, when Polynieces shows up, the first thing Jocasta does is berate him: "You never call, you never write, you didn't even invite me to your wedding. Just because your father cursed you, is that any reason to keep me from meeting my grandchildren?" And his response is pretty much, "Aw, Ma, come on." When Eteocles comes on, I keep expecting him to say, "See? She really loves me better!"

The image of Jocasta as a ditzy Italian (or maybe Jewish) mother does a lot to explain how everything could have happened.

---L.

[lisekit.livejournal.com]

hamartia does not mean "tragic flaw." It means "error."

It's funny - my mates and I used to refer to anything we mucked up as "hamartia". (Yes, I know it's not that kind of error. We finked we were being funny....!)