What is WRONG with writers?

[truepenny]

Why do we immediately believe any negative comment anywhere and never believe any of the positive ones?

...

...

or is that just me?

Comments

[halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com]

Is that just writers? Or is that human?

I guess it depends if you're a half full/half empty person.

[neutronjockey.livejournal.com]

Writers especially.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I really hoped it would go away when I quit writing. But alas...

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

It's not just you.

I can with a bit of effort make myself not believe some negative ones, but only when they are egregiously crazy at the "critiquing War and Peace for all the ways in which it fails to be Watership Down" level.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Supposedly psychologists have found that it takes some hugely disproportionate number of positive comments to outweigh the negative -- like ten or twelve to one.

It isn't just a writer thing.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

I keep hearing different ratios on this, but you're in the same ballpark that I've picked up -- that for criticism to be effective feedback, it needs to be not more than 25% of the message, with the balance in praise.

[antonstrout.livejournal.com]

It is all of us.. and the answer is that we are ALL retarded...

[fyretoppaaa.livejournal.com]

I guess it's because all writers are their own harshest critics. We immediately latch on to the negative comments because they're far easier to believe than the positive ones, especially since it might be similar to things we've been telling ourselves--considering the societal standard for modesty is to 'put yourself down before others', this makes sense. XD

[avocadovpx.livejournal.com]

It's not entirely a writer thing, but it seems to happen to writers more than the general population. Writers seem less secure, on average, than people in the musician communities I've known (choral singers, aspiring opera singers, pianists, and blues musicians).

It could be that writing attracts people who are more insecure, that it makes people more insecure, or that there's some more complicated relationship we don't see yet. As someone once told me, correlation is not causation.

(BTW, Elise's chapbook reminded me of how much I needed to read "Rhino Carries The Moon" again. Thank you.)

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Maybe because writers "perform" in isolation, separated from the audience for their work? Musicians of various stripes are probably used to having the audience right there.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

More than likely. Live performers get immediate feedback on whether their work is being appreciated or not. Writers aren't so lucky, and even with postitive praise they can insert their own caveats: "Oh, they're just saying that to be nice."

[avocadovpx.livejournal.com]

That sounds reasonable. Do you think doing readings, if you're a writer, helps with that? Does writing fanfic (with the faster response) help? Do the Shadow Unit writers feel better about their work because of the faster response?

I should ask my friend who paints and writes what sort of comparison he would make between the communities, too. That's probably a better comparison.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Unless a work is funny, I don't think audiences for readings tend to give very clear signs one way or another; they listen silently and then applaud politely. (Though the number of people who show up for the reading in the first place says soemthing.) Which can be true of music, too, but opera singers get the validation of important roles, bands get people dancing, etc.

I know the egoboo of comments on a fanfic is part of what some ficcers love about the experience, though. And the Shadow Unit folks seem to be enjoying the fan involvement.

Painting . . . now I wonder how gallery openings and the like fit into the mentality.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Maybe we suspect that the good ones could easily be polite lies, but there's no easy social reason for the bad ones?

...I'm not helping, am I? :p

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

It's not even that. It's that positive comments get the "Enh, what do they know?" response, whereas the negative comments immediately get all the authority in the room.

...

It would probably help if I could reverse those two reactions.

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

^ Yes, same here. Unless the negative comment is just clearly out of left field, in which case it also gets the "enh, what do they know?" reaction, but even then I'll feel a little insecure, like maybe I'm just not considering it from the proper angle or something.

[heresluck]

Not just you. And not just writers -- I mean, give me a call the next time I'm reading student evaluations, you know?

Honestly, I think it's any endeavor in which one can fall prey to Imposter Syndrome. Which covers a lot.

[belmanoir.livejournal.com]

...not just you.

"...[B]ut I need hardly multiply instances of the undeniable, if very unfortunate, fact that it is the nature of the artist to mind excessively what is said about him. Literature is strewn with the wreckage of men who have minded beyond reason the opinions of others." --Virginia Woolf, A Room of One's Own.

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

It's lots of people, but writers get to believe it about their writing and not just about issues like the size of their ears and whether they said something in the wrong tone of voice.

Would a picture of crested porcupine (http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/bb266/fidelio_photos/Cleveland%20Museum%20of%20Natural%20History/?action=view&current=S6300565.jpg) help?

If that's not enough, I have pictures of a fiberglass statue of a rat with its skeleton showing. And mathematical trash cans from Case Western...

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Not truepenny, but the porcupine helped me!

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

And, oh dear, that poor badly taxidermied platypus.

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

I was trying to ignore that poor critter altogether. Check out the set--there's a moose skeleton in there somewhere.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Okay, the moose is MADE OF AWESOME.

Also, of course, bone.

[lenora-rose.livejournal.com]

I'm terrible. I caught myself thinking that badly taxidermied platypus would work for a new icon for Chaz. If he's ever in a mood where he can make light of how long, slow, terrible and bloody boring recuperating is.

[michaeldthomas.livejournal.com]

I wish I knew the answer to that one. I’m the same way about everything I do. That includes parenting and all of my organizational work.

I realize that you probably don’t want to hear it at the moment, but you are one of the finest authors in the history of the fantasy genre. I’m just saying. :)

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

No, it's not just you.

I don't have an answer, though.

[panjianlien.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I have the same wrongness, though, if that's any comfort.

Perhaps from laying oneself open during the writing process?

[dakiwiboid.livejournal.com]

One's inner life doesn't necessarily leak onto the pages, but while the Muse is having her way with one (DAMN, all these "ones" sound affected, sorry!), a channel may open that's hard to close again.

I've been meaning to say that I read The Bone Key week before last and it gave me a series of delicious frissons. Thank you so much for that book! You really pulled off the kind of delicate horror I've always loved in Oliver Onions and the other old masters.

[sistercoyote.livejournal.com]

It's not just you.

That said, it could be worse: you could panic every time someone says something good about what you're writing and fear you can never keep that level of "neato" up in your writing so stop cold.

[issendai.livejournal.com]

^^^
THIS.

I do this far too often--reread something I wrote, be struck by the level of neato I forgot I put in (or didn't notice at the time because the now-forgotten image in my head was far better), realize I will never be that cool again. Even if it's from only a few months ago. Oh god, I peaked three months ago and didn't notice!

Ahem.

If it helps at all, either of these flavors of neurosis are infinitely preferable to believing all your good crit and never believing the bad. That way lies deeply, epically, colorfully bad books.

because...

[themadblonde]

the consequences of being disappointed are many, & the consequences of being pleasantly surprised are few. Because being seen as cynical is always cooler than being seen as naive. & because we like to believe others are just a little worse than we are.

[charlesatan.livejournal.com]

It's not just you.

I think it's a confidence issue.

Also, what would happen if the reverse were true? Would writers get any better if the only comments they believed were the positive ones?

[ruthannereid.livejournal.com]

It's not just you at all.

We tend to believe them because our own inner critic (to steal the term from Julia Cameron's Artist's Way) has already thrown those negative things at us, like poisonous darts - so when we hear them from someone else, it feels like confirmation.

[mariness.livejournal.com]

Definitely not just you. Sometimes I think I should just avoid reading/hearing any comments on my work at all.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

Human nature. It's always easier to remember/take seriously the bad things rather than the good.

Not just you, lotsa people

[zaf123.livejournal.com]

And also - I think the tendency to question oneself and one's actions, while occasionally hard on the nerves, makes one a better person (and one's actions, or writing, more considered and constructive/productive/polished) in the long run. Iow, if you * only * had a fatuous self regard and no self doubt, you'd be unbearable and your writing probably would be too. Some self doubt is good, it keeps us humble, it makes us try harder, it encourages us to listen to other points of view. (Taken to an extreme, of course, it's just another indulgence.)

Now I don't know you at all, but going from the writing in your lovely books, it seems as if you have pretty much the right amount when it comes to that. Zaf

[hevnlybarquings.livejournal.com]

Personally, I seem to be in the happy position of recieving almost universally positive comments for my first novel. (Hope I don't sound too full of myself ) The two negative comments so far were quite obviously engendered from personal preferences, which of course nobody can do anything about - those I nodded over, accepted and moved on.

I've not had a problem with believing the positive comments because they've all applauded a part of the story or my style that I myself like. Therefore the commentators are clearly intelligent, perceptive and on the same page as I am! And on a shallow level nothing thrills me more to have somebody say "I really liked such and such", because it reaffirms my original belief in my work - that's so cool.

There are certainly people out there in the wide world who thrive on being disagreeable and it's sad that they have the power to undermine your own confidence or belief in your abilities. I went through the edit from hell, so I know all too well what it feels like.

Cling on to the goodies, eye the baddies with a balanced view and ignore the wicked ones.

Oh, btw, Sarah - Corambis is now listed on Nielsen's BookData bib records and it's on Amazon too. April!! Can't wait.

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

Hope I don't sound too full of myself

Sorry to disappoint you...

[mithriltabby]

I think it’s a hallmark of sanity that you’re open to criticism. There are people who do filter out all negative comments and only believe the positive ones, and I find them scary.

[marypcb.livejournal.com]

there are people who don't get dented by criticism, who never worry that they're not up to the task they have undertaken and who remain utterly confident. Almost without exception they are incompetent and do a terrible job. The smart people who do a good job are smart enough to know that it's always possible to improve, they're smart enough to see their own mistakes and so they assume that they're not as good as the incompetents and believe all passing criticism.

Also, do you have an internal voice or mode that is watching for criticism to use it to improve or otherwise protect you but may be tuned slightly wrong? If you're the sort of person who can detect those inner modes, it's interesting to discover their parameters and intentions.

[daisakura.livejournal.com]

A teacher once gave me a negative comment on a story I'd written for a writing workshop I was sent to, that she'd thought I'd write something much better than my response to our god-awful prompt of 'aliens' and she was really disappointed, and I'll always remember it. I was only in fifth grade and I can remember the whole scene. I think it was starting then that I gave up writing.

Negative comments really do suck. Maybe it's just that they can hurt more and make such a lasting impression compared to the positive. And maybe yeah, it's due to confidence.

Constructive critisism, however, is a totally different story. I agree that those sort of comments are necessary, even in self reflection. Especially in my profession of teaching which I'll be graduating into in a few months after internship. Actually, I have no idea why, but when I have someone combine positive and negative in a response to something of mine I usually find it easier to accept both instead of shrugging off the positive like usual.