UBC: Red Seas Under Red Skies

[truepenny]

Lynch, Scott [scott_lynch]. Red Seas Under Red Skies. The Gentlemen Bastards 2. New York: Bantam Spectra-Bantam Books, 2007.

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Not a review so much as a couple of lists:

Things I love about RSURS and the Gentlemen Bastards books in general

1. The sexual equality. Yes, it's sad that we live in a world where I have to point this out as something cool, but we do and it is. There are enough female characters in active, powerful roles in these books that you don't have to waste your time looking for stereotypes. Some of them are smart, some are stupid, some are honest, some are dishonest, some are ruthless, some are merciful . . . you know, just like the men. And the female characters do things for a variety of reasons, too. Just like the men.

2. The religion. Whether or not the gods of this world are real, the religion is real. These characters believe in their gods, and that belief affects their behavior in realistic ways. (As in, sometimes it's damned inconvenient for them.)

3. The prose style. Dude can write.

4. Locke Lamora is an asshole. Also frequently a fuck-up. (I think if I had to split the Central Character duties, I'd say Jean Tannen is the hero, and Locke is the protagonist. Locke has a lot of growing up left to do.) And I love the way that Locke is almost but not quite as smart as he thinks he is.

5. Locke is useless in a fight. (I love this detail. Because it's such a clever, vicious undercutting of all the Errol Flynnery of Locke and his world and his genre.)

6. The beautifully complicated plots. Seriously. I love plots like enormous intricate clockwork. And Scott's very good about Chekhov's Gun. He plays fair.

7. The world-building. This is a marvelous world, and Scott makes it rich and vibrant and a hell of a lot of fun. (Also, he does that thing I keep harping about, where there's Weird Shit that doesn't have any bearing on the plot. It's just there.)

8. Locke and Jean's friendship is very real, with all the awkwardness and pissed-off-at-each-other-ness that that means. And still, their dialogue, and the way they throw a line of banter back and forth. I adore it and them.

Things I am not so fond of about RSURS

1. The predictability of Ezri's death. Seriously. Is there anyone who didn't see that coming three miles off? Now, I totally appreciate the fact that Ezri's death was a heroic and extremely active sacrifice (see comments about sexual equality above), but still. She was So. Fucking. Doomed. Not by anything in herself, but because that's what happens in buddy movies/TV shows/sock puppet theater when the sidekick gets a girlfriend. D-O-O-M-E-D.

2. There are some wobbles in the narrative structuring and the use of third-person omni. But, hey, you know, second book, learn by doing, and it's not like the composition of my house isn't 100% glass.

Things I am not so fond of about the Gentlemen Bastards books

1. There are only two of them.

2. And there are some PRETTY FUCKING PRESSING QUESTIONS facing Our Heroes at the end of book 2.

Comments

[kate_nepveu]

Your not-so-fond are the same as mine, though I would reverse them, because I particularly did not like the way the caper & pirate plots failed to integrate.

New one in February!

[illian.livejournal.com]

I heard there are several (5?) more books to answer the questions with too!

[mevincula.livejournal.com]

"And I love the way that Locke is almost but not quite as smart as he thinks he is." that is my favorite part of these books. I enjoyed the first book, but I liked the second one better (the caper was more convincingly convoluted). My biggest problem with the series is that I do think Locke's unrequited love story is just painfully trite.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

I am hoping that if/when Sabetha ever actually appears on stage, Locke's version of things will get the rug yanked out from under it.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

I actually expect that, considering the looks Jean gives him whenever it comes up.

[wordswoman.livejournal.com]

The Republic of Thieves is coming in February, hurrah! And since there's a redheaded woman featured on the cover, I am hopeful that we'll at last meet Locke's beloved and find out why they've been estranged & far apart for the first two books.

Unless the cover girl is some unrelated redhead, in which case: Pfui!

These books are such an entertaining romp, though, that the minor flaws haven't bothered me so far.

[kate_nepveu]

She appears at least in flashback, per his reading at Readercon last year.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with everything you said -- I love the books, particularly on account of the world, which is so much fun, and Locke, who just feels incredibly real to me (mostly because I constantly want to hit him with things). That being said, did see Ezri coming. She totally did not have to die.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I was pretty unhappy with the presentation of women. Even though there was equality in terms of the work they did (probably unlikely at the tech level), they just weren't coming into focus as characters. I wasn't crazy about Ezri, but at least she was a major part of the story.

And then she was dead, even though it was very heroic, and it basically seemed because she would be inconvenient to have around-- if she lived, it would complicate the primary relationship between the two men.

It makes me admire the Destroyer series-- in that one, it doesn't last between Remo and Ruby Gonsalez, but she just wanders out of the story (having arranged things in some way I don't remember so she doesn't get killed by either of the Two Best Assassins in the World) rather than dying.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

The women bugged me, too, though I've only read The Lies of Locke Lamora so far, and am hoping it improves. The story tells you women are guards and thieves and everything else, but almost every time a character gets named and brought out of the spear-carrier ranks in the background, it's a man. Of the four "major" women in the first book, one (I forget her name) is offstage the entire time and just being pined after, and one gets refrigeratored (so to speak). Which leaves two. And they're an awesome two, but two is a pretty small number for a book with such a large cast.

Which I think wouldn't have bugged me if the descriptive text hadn't kept reminding me that women have equality in that society. I kept feeling like, okay, I want to believe you, but first "male" has to stop being the default setting for any new character.

I really enjoyed the first book, but that kept distracting me. Which is unusual for me, too; my feminist lens is generally something I decide to put on.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

I found the second book a great improvement over the first book in that regard. (I think the balance gets thrown off because the Gentlemen Bastards, as we get to know them, are all men. And Locke's Lost Love Sabetha is, thus far in the series, an annoying narrative device. As I said in another comment, I'm hoping that when we finally get to meet her, Locke's version of things gets turned upside down and shaken briskly.) Zamira Drakasha makes up for a lot all by herself.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I have every intention of reading on, because yes, I've been assured it gets better. Which I'm willing to believe, since I don't read any malice or even prejudice into the imbalance; it really just does feel like the default is set to male, and (at least in the first book) wasn't checked and flipped often enough. The GBs skewed the balance, but even if you take them out of the equation, the women don't get the screen time their society says they should.

[radiotelescope.livejournal.com]

I think your accounting missed the Berengia sisters? Them, Nazca, Dona Sofia, Dona Vorchenza, and the absent Sabetha. Or are you counting the Berengia sisters as not major enough?

A nonzero number of male characters also get refrigeratored.

Also, I didn't think the text was *quite* telling me that this was a society without gender prejudice. It's a society which has mostly overcome prejudice. Barsavi says, of Nazca, "It's nothing to do with her being a woman, you know" -- but he has to *say* it.

My opinion of Lynch's annoying narrative devices is that *his* opinion is "It can't be cheap if I ain't *ashamed* of it." And I do appreciate the sheer gall... more than half the time, which is not the same as Lynch doing it perfectly.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Yes, I don't count them as major. Really, I'm stretching to grant that status to Sabetha and Nazca, considering. Dona Sofia and Dona Vorchenza are the only women to have any substantive effect on the direction of the plot, as I recall.

The refrigerator thing . . . it's been long enough since I read the book that I don't trust my memory to fairly evaluate it, but off the cuff I don't remember any men being so thoroughy brutalized solely for the purpose of causing angst to important (male) characters. (Also, the guys I can think of who got horribly murdered at least got to do something before being gacked.) Then again, I'm more likely to be alert to female characters treated in that fashion, because of the frequency of that trope elsewhere.

You're right that the society has mostly, not completely, overcome prejudice -- but if there are female thieves in anything like a noticeable percentage, I would expect to see a few of them get speaking roles. Etc. What sticks in my mind her is the scene where all the thief-crew leaders are speaking up for whatever reason, and there's like half a dozen of them, all guys. This, obviously, was after the point in the novel where I started going, "uh, when are we going to get a woman who isn't Sabetha The Perpetually Offstage?", so I was keeping count.

Edited to correct: I just went and re-read the post I wrote back when I finished the book, and apparently there was a female garrista in the scene mentioned above. Still, my point stands: few female characters above the level of "nameless spear-carrier," and fewer still with any influence on the plot.

[radiotelescope.livejournal.com]

Nazca impressed me as a character who got a startling amount of plot significance out of just two short scenes, *before* she got used as plot leverage. But you're right, it's not on par.

And I completely take your point about background characters -- the random clerks and waiters and guards who make up scheme fodder. There may have been one female law clerk but I might be imagining it.

I just reread LoLL a couple of weeks ago, and I will get to rereading RSURS in the next few weeks, and I will try to pay more attention to this.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I was struck frequently in RSURS about how often women showed up as guards and officers and things. It began to throw me off when he stopped bothering to mention the gender of such characters right away, and then I started enjoying it once I got used to the fact that what mattered was that it was a guard, not whether it was a man or woman.

It was kind of cool, actually, and it made me realize how often I assume things in other books.

[coalescent.livejournal.com]

off the cuff I don't remember any men being so thoroughy brutalized solely for the purpose of causing angst to important (male) characters.

It's a little while since I read it, but don't most of the Gentlemen Bastards die for the purpose of causing angst to Locke and Jean?

[catrambo.livejournal.com]

Just finished Red Seas last week and really enjoyed it, but it's driving me nuts to have to wait till Feb for the next one. :( This is why I usually wait till all of a series is out before picking it up.

[britmandelo.livejournal.com]

I stocked these in my store last week, and I'd been pondering picking them up. Guess this decides it!

[cassandraterra.livejournal.com]

I love Mr. Lynch's stories. His writing just draws you in. Yes, I wish there were more strong female characters, but he may surprise us in his next installment. And...is he still alive?! Not, Locke or Jean, Mr. Lynch himself. Love to see him write again on his LJ.

[cathellisen.livejournal.com]

Hmm, this has inspired me to read them. Thanks.

[almightychrissy.livejournal.com]

I've been having the strange experience that while I tore through Lies, I simply CANNOT get into Red Seas. I don't know what my problem is, really, maybe it's the lack of flashbacks starring Father Chains, maybe there's not enough italics of extreme awesomeness, but something just isn't working for me.

Jean Tannen is totally the hero. He's been my favorite ever since he showed up all shy and squinty and pissed off.

[txanne.livejournal.com]

I haven't forgiven the book for the trick pulled in the prologue/first scene thing. THAT IS CHEATING. There is NO possible reason for that particular piece of not-playing-fair. I don't know if I'll ever reread it because it pissed me off so much. (Yes, I am aware that my reaction is a bit over the top, but that doesn't change the fact that the prologue threw me out of the book entirely the second time it showed up. CHEATING, I tell you.) And I really, really wanted to love the second book as much as I loved the first one. Now I'm going to wait for the paperback of the third one because I'm not paying HC prices for an author who cheats.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

It's annoying, sure, but how is it cheating?

[txanne.livejournal.com]

Because it made me go "AAAAAGH, what earthshakingly awful thing has Locke done???" and then it turned out that he just failed to pay attention. So I spent half the book expecting something to happen, and then I felt lied to. Because I was! Authors shouldn't take things out of context like that just to make some fake suspense. It's like Lynch didn't trust his story to be exciting on its own.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Which is why I agree that it's annoying.

I think he also seriously undersold the payoff: Locke and Jean have a Moment, and then poof, it never happened.

(I still wouldn't call it cheating, but, you know, that's a judgment call.)

[txanne.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's like he did the Seventies TV Manly Men Schtick.

And I know perfectly well that my reaction is, um, stronger than average. I'm kind of glad to be in the minority, actually; I don't want to buy the hardback, but I'm hoping he earns out his advance, you know?

[sleary.livejournal.com]

Yes. So annoying.

I got the same impression nancylebov did about Ezri: she died merely because letting her live would complicate things.

I do love these books, but those two things really irritated the hell out of me in the second one. Still pining for #3, of course.

[crookedfeet.livejournal.com]

At WFC last year, Scott did tell me that bk. 3 is indeed Sabetha's book.

[clhollandwriter]

Sabetha's book as in she's in it, or as in she's a/the main viewpoint character? *is worried*

[crookedfeet.livejournal.com]

From what he said, the main viewpoint character. He decided she needed a book of her own.

[clhollandwriter]

Ick. I'll definitely be waiting for the paperback then. :(

[crookedfeet.livejournal.com]

Oh, Locke's a major character too-it's just that his relationship with Sabetha is so important to his character that when she came onstage she needed to be a major player and there wasn't room in either Lies or Red Seas for that.

[clhollandwriter]

Maybe I'll get the hardcover if I see it cheap then. ;)

I think it's just an "upsetting the status quo" thing, because I had the same reaction when I realised that Mehitabel was a viewpoint character in The Mirador, but I liked it once I'd got used to her.

[clhollandwriter]

I agree with all of these. My main concern regarding the last one is that he's going to "cheat" - as per txanne's comments about the prologue. Personally, I think that it was cheating (it certainly left me feeling cheated) but mainly because he completely wasted the scene. And I'm worried he's going to use the same method to deal with the end of RSURS.

[saltypepper.livejournal.com]

Yes yes yes to #4! And yes, ITA that Jean Tannen is the hero, Locke is simply the more charismatic one.

I am waiting none-too-patiently for February, and I fully expect that Sabetha is going to rock Locke's world. Should she not, I will be extremely shout-y in my disappointment.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

You know, Ezri's death actually surprised me? I guess it's because of the sexual equality thing. I actually thought, y'know, maybe they'd get away with it in a world where everybody's like real people. But no. Sadface.

Also, that opening cliffhanger...man. I'm torn between feeling cheated and laughing.

I'm almost afraid to meet Sabetha now. My reaction to these books has become so complex that I'm halfway between adoring them and wanting to wash my hands of the series, and I don't even know why! I suspect it's a reaction to having my expectations constantly undercut. Sometimes that pays off in a big way, and other times...well, sometimes you really like your expectations.

[the-glow-worm.livejournal.com]

I knew the moment they got involved that Ezri was going to die, because then Jean wouldn't be able to wander the world with Locke. And that's what it's all about, isn't it? The guylove.

(Honestly, I think Scott went out of his way to create an equal world, and then thought, "That's it, I'm done. Nothing more to do.")

Yeah good review

[muneraven.livejournal.com]

I love Scott Lynch's books. Like you, I wasn't crazy about the predictable death of Ezri, but I am a picky reader who can find fault with any book, so if a book does most things right and gives me a hell of a ride and makes me want more, I forgive.

Besides I don't envy fantasy writers like Lynch and Rothfuss who have first books that make a big noise and get lots of attention. I think that would be hard. Being annointed as the new Savior of Fantasy, the new Tolkien, that kind of thing? Eww. That's like a new band being called the next Beatles. You know, The Beatles couldn't handle the attention of being The Beatles, lol. I wish the hype-makers in the arts would tone it down and just let good writers (and musicians) do their stuff.

[herewiss13.livejournal.com]

I'd been familiar with you as an author, but it was the Due South write-ups that got you friended. But now, this makes two books that I have picked up from your recommendations (or even just discussions of) and devoured. "The Bone Key" and now "The Lies of Locke Lamora"...and I'm going to be going out this afternoon to pick up Red Seas. So: many thanks!

I think my favorite part of "Lies" was how the world building was in service to the plot, even (and especially) when it didn't appear so. Wraithstone showed up within the first 100 pages as an aside. The Gladiator twins, Locke hanging onto people so Jean could pummel them, etc. etc. Lynch was throwing barrels of Chekov guns out into the narrative, but they didn't look like guns! They looked like setting, or local color or anecdotes: which made their reappearances as plot points all the more satisfyingly surprising (i.e. I knew the sculptures were bad, but I'd figured it was just explosives).

One quibble _might_, as others have mentioned, be Sabetha...I spent most of the book waiting for her flashback. Eventually, her non appearance just got amusing rather than aggravating. But it's nice to know she'll have a book of her own soon and Amazon says there's a prequel with the whole Gentlemen Bastards gang coming out in 2010.