Q&A 17

Apr. 22nd, 2009 09:43 am
truepenny: artist's rendering of Sidneyia inexpectans (Default)
[personal profile] truepenny
But first, I have a question for all of you.

Dreamwidth? Y|N|WTF



Q: Why do bad things happen to gay characters? Specifically Gideon, Felix and Isolfr (I know he's not gay, but bad (well, dubious consent) gay related things things happen to him. And uninformed, modern observers would have trouble recognizing his not-gayness).

If you've answered this in the first round (I know you've explained several times why bad things happened to Felix in Melusine), perhaps you could comment generally on it, especially as gay characters tend to have gay related bad things happen, ie. Straight male characters getting raped by men (especially more or less on screen) is very rare, whereas it almost seems to be mandatory for gay protagonists (not that it's why you did it, since you have a bunch of good reasons for it).


A: First of all, what happens to Isolfr is the questionable-consent gang rape of a straight man. Whether uninformed modern observers recognize that he's straight or not.

But more broadly, I think this ties back into the question about drama and melodrama and angst from yesterday, and ties forward into the question I'm going to answer after this one, about women characters. But let's put the provisional answer as, many women writers are more comfortable writing male characters, and in particular, many writers, both male and female, seem to think that gay men are like women (with the emotionality and the emphasis on relationships etc. etc., and let me just add that that's as gross a stereotype of women as it is of gay men). So gay men get slotted in (for some women writers) as a way to have a male protagonist and yet write the emotionally fraught stories that interest them. I think gay men are also appealing in this context because they're men--i.e., high status and automatically quote-unquote "interesting" to both readers and writers--but because they're gay, there's a social vulnerability (frequently translated into emotional and physical vulnerability) which is more like the social status of women. This also leaves the high prestige and invulnerability of heterosexual men unquestioned, so nobody's rocking the social boat too hard. In other words, terrible things happen to gay protagonists because writers perceive them as vulnerable. (And not, sadly and horrifyingly, without rather a lot of real-world evidence to back them up.) Making a male heterosexual protagonist sexually vulnerable is deconstructing our social categories in ways that lots of writers either (a.) don't think of, because it's hard to describe water when you're a fish, or (b.) don't want to deal with.

The preceding paragraph is full of horrible over-generalizations. I know that and I apologize for it. And offer by way of balance the next question, which is extremely specific to me:

Q: In Corambis there are at least three gay male characters,possibly a fourth (I haven't finished the book yet). Yet the last time you had a female gay character was in Mélusine, and that was a very small part. I like that you address homosexuality and I like Felix and Kay, but as a queer woman it feels disproportionate. I've noticed in your other works you don't write very many women characters, and I wondered why that is, and do you think you'll ever focus on a female protagonist or a gay female character?

and

Q: Female characters: you have wonderful, strong female characters (Mehitabel and Booth's Miss Coburn, for instance), but your protagonists tend to be male (I understand that, in "A Companion to Wolves", there are no female characters at all, but I haven't read the book). Is there any particular reason for that?

A: Busted.

That is a 100% fair cop.

(To digress for a moment, although it is true that A Companion to Wolves has no human female main characters, there are female characters in the book. In fact, it's probably the most feminist thing either [livejournal.com profile] matociquala or I have ever written. So it's a special case.)

So I need to talk about why, when I am self-evidently a woman and vocally a feminist, I have so few women in my fiction. Which means I need to talk about my relationship with my own femininity, which is ... conflicted, to put it kindly.

Like many women my age and older (happily, this seems to be subject to rapidly accelerating change these days), I grew up reading books which had a fairly sharp gender divide. Books with female protagonists were books like Anne of Green Gables (which I hated) and Little Women (which I also hated). If you wanted books where interesting things happened, you were pretty much stuck with books about boys. Or horse books, but even there, the most readily available series was the Black Stallion books, with hello, boy protagonist. (I think one reason I liked the Sunfire historical romances so much was that Things Happened. My favorite was Amanda, which only nominally fits the series' romance paradigm and is mostly about the Oregon Trail.) I should add that I realize that this is a skewed and biased view of YA fiction, even in 1985, but it was how it seemed to me. So some default got set in my head very early that Girls Are Not Interesting. Also, even when girls got to be in interesting books, they were generally, well, girly. Weepy and passive and frequently kind of stupid, as opposed to their brothers or male friends. I didn't like girls in fiction. Even when I imagined myself in, for example, one of Anne McCaffery's Pern books, I wanted to be a brown rider, not stuck with the queen. (Yes, I had a platonic, cross-species crush on Canth. I still think this shows I had good taste.)

Add to this the fact that my own personal experiences of femininity have mostly been unpleasant. Menstrual cramps (which were grotesquely severe when I was in high school), the difficulties and pains of being, *ahem*, generously endowed, a variety of fun harassment from both boys and girls in junior high and high school, the frequent conviction that I had to be some sort of alien when faced with girls my age . . . Being female didn't seem any better than reading about female characters.

(N.b., much of this improved radically once I got to college--and even more when I got to grad school--where people were, by and large, (a.) geeks and (b.) prepared to behave like adults to each other, and I finally found women who were LIKE ME. Also people, both male and female, who didn't care whether I wore make-up or shaved my legs or participated in any other markers of normative femininity.)

So things got set in my head fairly early on that women are not interesting and I don't understand them and don't have anything in common with them. (Yes, I know this is nonsense. Prejudices instilled by early conditioning always are.) I'm fighting against this set of beliefs, but it's an uphill battle (writing Mehitabel was hard)--all the more so seeing that I don't sit down and deliberately create characters the way, for example, gamers roll up a character. They come to me, and because I have this deeply entrenched belief female characters aren't interesting, the vicious circle means that mostly male characters show up. Thus, women are underrepresented in my books. (I'm hopeful, btw, that this is beginning to shift; my recent spate of highly narrative dreams has been notable for its female protagonists.) I know it, and I don't like it, and I'm working on it.



Q: What was the significance of Corbie and Mildmay sleeping with each other? Was it for a particular narrative reason, or did the characters simply do it of their own accord (and I know you don't subscribe to the 'my characters are alive and speak through me!' doctrine, so please understand that's shorthand), or for another reason, or...?

A: Well, propositioning Mildmay was something Corbie was going to do sooner or later. (I wanted the prostitutes in Bernatha to show that it is possible for people to be sex workers without being miserable, oppressed, drug-addicted, and hopeless the way most prostitutes in Mélusine seem to be. So Corbie isn't traumatized by her job and has a perfectly healthy enjoyment of sex. And Mildmay is hot.) And Mildmay badly needed to learn that he could have sex with a girl he knew and liked (friend-"like," not love-"like") and not have the world come to an end. As George Michael says, "Sex is natural, sex is good, not everybody does it, but everybody should." *g*


Q: What was the hardest thing to cut from the books?

A: Mostly, the trauma of cutting scenes seems to vanish away very quickly, so the only scenes I'm still bitter about are the ones in Corambis--which I'm going to post late Thursday or early Friday, so you all have something to read while I'm at Odyssey Con.

Q: How do you develop minor characters? Do they tend to (since there are so many, I'm sure it's done in a variety of ways) spring fully formed, or what, exactly?

A: Generally, the minor characters get created situationally. Giancarlo is a good example. Somebody had to be in charge of the Curia, and the most immediately salient feature of his character was how he dealt with Felix. So I made a decision about that, and the other details were added as necessary around the thing I knew.



Q: So, why couldn't you've written DoL in omniscient?

A: Um. A severe lack of the necessary writing chops?

Felix insisted on being a first-person narrator from the very beginning, even when I was trying to argue--as I then believed--that I couldn't write first person. And as things developed, I think the books would have lost a great deal without the first-person narrators.



Q: I must admit I thought Thamuris would die at some point in Corambis. He didn't, just wondering how long he survived after the end of the book and how well he kept up his relationships with Mildmay and Felix.

A: I can't tell you what happens after the end of Corambis because I don't know. I can say that people with tuberculosis could survive longer than one might think: Doc Holliday, for instance, lasted nearly fifteen years. And Thamuris has the advantage that the Khloïdanikos seems to retard the progression of the disease significantly.




Q: So, we know that the name "Corambis" references Polonius's character in Hamlet Q1. That said, is there some specific reference to this character that applies to Corambis itself?

A: Nope. I just repurposed the word because I like it. I'm capricious like that.



Q: I'm really really bad at pronouncing things the correct way(It still trips me up that Stephen is pronounced more like Steven, and not Ste-fen). So in Corambis, when Mrs. Fawn was gushing over Felix and said Mirador and the Catacombes somethingsomething Arcane(I left my copy in the car so I can reread it between classes--I don't remember), Felix mentioned she pronounced it the wrong way. When you did that reading of the chapter, were you pronouncing it the correct way, or pronouncing it the way Mrs. Fawn would have horribly mispronounced it? If you mispronounced it, what is the correct way?

A: No, I pronounced it correctly. Felix would, and it saved me from having to deliberately mispronounce it.



Q: Does His Grace the Duke of Murtagh have just the tiniest bit of a thing for his brother-in-law?

A: Yes. I told him it was stupid and hopeless and self-destructive, but he wouldn't listen to me.

Murtagh is very lucky Kay never figured it out.




Q: Are Felix and Milly-Fox characters you write about, or people who live in your head, that scowl and tap their feet when they feel you're not telling their story properly or fast enough?

And if so, do you expect them to shut up now that it's done? XD


A: As I've said, I dislike the metaphor of talking about characters as if they were real people "living" in my head (although I succumb to the shorthand occasionally). This is a personal dislike, not a condemnation of other people's metaphors or conceptual frameworks.

So, no. Honestly, if they were real, I think they'd be as relieved as I am that the series is ended.



Q: Do you happen to know where the Kalliphorne and her mate came from? I was struck by her appearance in Corambis, as well as her cameos in other books. I mean she is a perfectly Melusinian take on the mermaid (or mermatron, as seems to be the case with her), but at the same time I don't actually think of Meduse (is that the right name for the world?) as a place with magical animals.

A: Nope. No idea. They're just there under Mélusine, being completely anomalous. (And, yes, Meduse is what I call the world.)

Q: I also want to know what (if any) real world roots the White Eyed Goddess has, and why she recurs in so many different cultural contexts in the books? She has much more the flavor of actual mythology from this world, and much less (very much less) of the all-loving Mother Goddess of much recent fantasy. Which is to say that as made up deities go, I like her very much.

A: Well, she recurs because she turned out to be thematic and a good way to comment on how religion changes based on the needs of various societies. Her real-world roots are, as best I can remember, mostly the Eleusinian mysteries of Demeter and Persephone. I think I was taken with the idea of making Persephone an agent rather than a victim. So her origin is me thinking about Persephone as Queen of Hades with power in her own right, rather than as the skeevy Greek version of Patty Hearst.



Q: Was there any particular reason why Felix was the most powerful wizard in the Mirador, besides him being the protagonist?

A: To give the other wizards a reason to resent him. Also, he had to be exceptionally powerful for Malkar to be able to use him to break the Virtu. (And then later, ditto for mending it.)

Q: Why, to you, is it so important to show the story of the character started before the book did?

A: Two reasons. One is that it makes both the character and the world feel deeper, less like a solipsism of the author. The other is that, for all that I resist the metaphor of the characters being "real" in this world, I do believe I have to grant them reality in their own world. It's part of respecting them, which given the shit I put my characters through, is a necessary balance. And if they're real people, they have lives, and those lives inevitably extend beyond the borders of the story. So my second answer is the obverse-face of my first. Writing fiction is inherently solipsistic, but, for me, if I'm going to do it well, I have to fight that solipsism as hard as I can.



[Ask your question(s) here.]
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Date: 2009-04-22 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stillnotbored.livejournal.com
My vote: Dreamwidth--WTF?

Date: 2009-04-22 05:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nathreee.livejournal.com
seconded

Date: 2009-04-22 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] liminalia.livejournal.com
Dreamwidth: I got an account but am not sure whether I'm going to use it a lot. I regard it as a bolthole should LJ go further down the tubes in quality and user service. I took a survey last week and most of my friends are planning to stay here or mirror content in both.

Date: 2009-04-22 05:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] casacorona.livejournal.com
Dreamwidth? I dunno. I can hardly keep up here.

although it is true that A Companion to Wolves has no female main characters, there are female characters in the book.

No female main characters? And what is Viridechtis? And Vigdis?

Date: 2009-04-22 05:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] truepenny.livejournal.com
Argh! I got distracted and forgot the crucial adjective "human." No human female main characters.

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From: [identity profile] mrissa.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-04-22 05:26 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] matociquala.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-04-22 05:32 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2009-04-22 05:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com
If Murtagh is lucky Kay hasn't figured it out (although Kay seems pretty clueless about anyone's opinion of him that is non-negative--I suspect that once Vanessa figures this out she's going to have fun spoiling him), he's likely even more lucky Isobel hasn't caught on.

Date: 2009-04-22 05:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] truepenny.livejournal.com
*ahem* Yes.

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Date: 2009-04-22 05:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kelliem.livejournal.com
Dreamwidth- I'll probably get an account and crosspost until I see which way the fannish wind is blowing. :D

Also this: the skeevy Greek version of Patty Hearst. Best description of the traditional view of Persephone EVER!

Date: 2009-04-22 05:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] matociquala.livejournal.com
I like continuity. I'm staying here. (Honestly, it's a blogging platform. I have enough trouble keeping up with twitter and facebook and this place, and I just rss other blogs I care about into my lj reading list anyway.)

I'm sure it's the most wonderful thing since sliced bread, but I don't like sliced bread.

Maybe all the people who annoy me will go over there, though. That would be nice.

*g*

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From: [identity profile] kelliem.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-04-22 05:45 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2009-04-22 05:19 pm (UTC)
ext_90101: jason todd being uncharacteristic (comics | lil' dcu | bat-on-bat action)
From: [identity profile] pitselly.livejournal.com
The more I read about Murtagh, the more I like him, and I liked him a lot from the get-go. Of course, now I want to know what would happen if/when Kay does find out. Think think think.

And it's nice to know I'm not the only person who does that with Stephen's name D:

Dreamwidth: sounds interesting, and worth a try if only because I am a packrat of a thing.
Edited Date: 2009-04-22 05:45 pm (UTC)

Date: 2009-04-22 06:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ejmam.livejournal.com
I figure Kay will develop a crush on Mildmay, as the most competent, hot, and unavailable person in reach. Covering that up will help keep him from noticing anyone liking him for a while.

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Date: 2009-04-22 05:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pixel39.livejournal.com
I wanted a bronze dragon until I decided that Pernese dragons were wusses and I liked LeGuin's dragons better. But I did also have a crush on Canth. :-)

Date: 2009-04-22 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] poodlerat.livejournal.com
Q: Does His Grace the Duke of Murtagh have just the tiniest bit of a thing for his brother-in-law?

A: Yes.


Ah-ha! I was right!

Date: 2009-04-22 05:44 pm (UTC)
kate_nepveu: sleeping cat carved in brown wood (Default)
From: [personal profile] kate_nepveu
Dreamwidth: y, because I've been wanting the ability to split "I give this person access to protected content" and "I have time to subscribe to this person's journal" for ages.

I will probably cross-post once it's out of beta, though.

Date: 2009-04-22 05:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] matociquala.livejournal.com
That is an excellent selling point.

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From: [identity profile] heleninwales.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-04-22 10:24 pm (UTC) - Expand

various

Date: 2009-04-22 05:56 pm (UTC)
themadblonde: (Default)
From: [personal profile] themadblonde
Dreamwidth= bolthole (as stated above) + platform from which to continue following a few people who are already moving. However, I'm probably here until lj goes down in flames, as I know & follow too many friends w/ permanent accounts. They're not leaving; I'm not leaving.

George Michael quote- one of my faves, oh yes, oh yes. ;-)

...the skeevy Greek version of Patty Hearst.- FTW!!! ;-D

Date: 2009-04-22 06:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ariadnes-string.livejournal.com
Really liked your discussion of why women writers like to write male protagonists above (and share your early indoctrination into the idea that girls aren't interesting). Made me think, too, about early male novelists, who took on women's voices--Defoe/ Moll Flanders, Richardson/ Clarissa, etc.

But mostly, I wanted to say that even though I'm still only mid-way through Corambis (RL, etc.), I LOVE Murtagh, and am happy whenever he shows up. Love the thing he has for Kay, whether it ever goes beyond UST or not. You have a real gift for writing men comfortable with their own power--Murtagh is like Stephen, only better--

Re: Dreamwidth

Date: 2009-04-22 06:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thechildoftime.livejournal.com
N, and WTF.

I've yet to find anything on Dreamwidth I couldn't do on Livejournal. And all my friends are staying. So I'm staying, and I hope all the people I read do, too!

Date: 2009-04-22 06:18 pm (UTC)
libskrat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] libskrat
Dreamwidth y, because of its commitment to usability and accessibility and its sensible-seeming no-ads business model.

I also like that the way they're making it work means that hardly anyone will be forced into an either/or decision.

Date: 2009-04-22 06:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dd-b.livejournal.com
There's no chance of a real "migration" to Dreamwidth, short of LJ shutting down (it wouldn't be 100% effective even then).

I have deep doubts about their long-term viability; I don't believe their financial model. However, they've mentioned the exact doubts I have, they just disagree with me, so quite possibly they'll be right.

Not having advertisers being their primary "customers" does seem likely to make them better-behaved about some things. But they're still going to be subject to national laws, and they're still going to make moves to cover their ass against legal action especially in their home country, so people will still get pissed at them now and then; even if everybody migrated there, it wouldn't end kerfuffles.

Separating reading from permissions is a good step. Not using the name "friend" is a good step.

I finally enabled OpenID on my own self-hosted blog. That was a good step, too.

Date: 2009-04-22 06:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] starlady38.livejournal.com
I joined Dreamwidth two days ago, and it's a hoot. I imported my entire LJ, and I can (and do) crosspost my entries from DW to LJ, or any other journal service. Also, I like being able to split reading and giving access. I have also heard that one can friend LJs and read them through DW, but I haven't worked out how, or whether I want, to do that yet.

I think I like Murtagh twice as much as I did now that I have that confirmation.

Date: 2009-04-22 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] musicianatheart.livejournal.com
the 'reading from other platforms' thing hasn't been enabled yet, but from what I've seen (in this comment thread (http://copperbadge.livejournal.com/2749911.html?thread=49687255#t49687255)) it's in the works and will be up by open beta.

also for the general dreamwidth question, I'm a Y with an account and plans to register a second name for a separate purpose once we hit open beta, and while I'm undecided as to how I'm going to use it differently from LJ, I plan to keep both up and running but not crossposting (we'll see how that goes, seeing as how my LJ by itself has gone abandoned for long stretches in the past).

Date: 2009-04-22 06:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sistercoyote.livejournal.com
Dreamwidth: Meh (or, "As you wish"

Date: 2009-04-22 06:43 pm (UTC)
aedifica: Me with my hair as it is in 2020: long, with blue tips (Default)
From: [personal profile] aedifica
Dreamwidth = M. I'm going to create an account there as soon as I can in the hopes of getting my preferred username. Then I'll have it already if, as looks likely, many of my friends move there.

Date: 2009-04-22 06:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] britmandelo.livejournal.com
About writing female characters:

Oh my god, that is my exact reason for not writing many female characters. Trust me, it isn't just you with that whole late-80s (or in my case early 90s) YA availability. All the cool books were about boys. *g* I just had that discussion (argument?) with my partner, actually, who seems convinced that my general bitterness toward the prescriptive female cultural identity has affected my writing in a negative way. He may be right. I'm not sure yet. I've been making a conscious effort to write women, at least in the background, who are more like other women I do know and respect instead of what I seem to remain subconsciously convinced women are. But then they seem overly contrived. Hrm.

Date: 2009-04-22 07:02 pm (UTC)
clhollandwriter: (Default)
From: [personal profile] clhollandwriter
Re Girls Are Not Interesting - suddenly I understand the inside of my own head a lot better, so thank you. (And as a side note, I recently came to the conclusion that I needed to get in touch with my "feminine side" a bit more, so I took up bellydancing. :D )

Date: 2009-04-22 07:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] janne.livejournal.com
Dreamwidth N -- permanent account here, so not moving until the end of permanence.

Date: 2009-04-22 07:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] topknot.livejournal.com
Your observations about YA fiction are spot-on. I remember being forced to read those ghastly Judy Blume books about emo, weepy girls who couldn't WAIT to get their periods, had major self esteem issues, and generally had me wanting to throttle them two or three pages into the book. One of the few female characters I remember actually liking was in Jean Craighead George's Julie of the Wolves.

I had so little in common with most female characters to begin with (of course, having gender dysphoria was a major contributing factor). I identified far more with the male protagonists from Jim Kjelgaard's books, Where the Red Fern Grows, and a great many non-human characters in books like Watership Down, Tailchaser's Song, and Uhura's Song.

Date: 2009-04-22 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] truepenny.livejournal.com
Judy Blume and Beverly Cleary: so very thumbs down.

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Date: 2009-04-22 07:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] themadfish.livejournal.com
Dreamwidth? Y. At the very least, I'm gonna mess around with it and see how it works out. And I'm starting to like Murtagh even more.

Date: 2009-04-22 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oceruleanskies.livejournal.com
Have no idea what Dreamwidth is, but since it´s your idea and so bound to be a Truepenny-idea, I say yes!

But, curiosity peaked, what is it?

Date: 2009-04-22 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] truepenny.livejournal.com
No, no, it's nothing to do with me.

Dreamwidth (http://www.dreamwidth.org/) is an up-and-coming blog platform.

Date: 2009-04-22 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oceruleanskies.livejournal.com
Interesting, because when I was a teenager, I often wished I was a boy and pretended with my clothing I was a dandy. Interesting too, because myself having somewhere to park your bike in front and at the back, I nowhere near could pass as a boy, but in my head I thought I was decidedly male.

Date: 2009-04-23 03:41 am (UTC)
ext_90101: jason todd being uncharacteristic (misc | hominid | androgenous ogenous)
From: [identity profile] pitselly.livejournal.com
More and more, I'm starting to think of my lack of interest in 'traditionally female' fiction and the writing thereof has more to do with growing up in a society that tends to be female-negative (unless you fit the specific parameters detailed within those 'traditionally female' books, and not always then) and less to do with dysphoria.

Date: 2009-04-22 08:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alamaris.livejournal.com
Dreamwidth: equal measures of M and WTF. It looks interesting, albeit a more sparkly, author-friendly version of Livejournal. I'll have to wait until it's available to the public on the 30th to say for sure, though. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

Also;

A: Yes. I told him it was stupid and hopeless and self-destructive, but he wouldn't listen to me.

Aha! I figured as much.
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