Latin minutiae question

[truepenny]

I ask on behalf of heres_luck and renenet, because I don't want to tell them the wrong thing.

They were talking, apparently--and you'll have to ask one of them for the context--about the word "subterranean" and wondering what the opposing term for above-ground would be. I think--and said--that it would be "superterranean," but my Latin's a little rusty and I'm not quite sure what the distinction is between super- and supra-.

Can you distinguish between ABOVE ground (as in the "airs above ground" of the Lippizaners) and ON the ground?

And, off my own bat, what would the word be for "through the earth," i.e., neither above nor below? Or is that even a distinction that the Latin conception of terra allows for?

Disquisitions welcome! The more pedantic the better!

Comments

[cija.livejournal.com]

'Superterranean' does in fact mean on or dwelling above the surface of the earth, from superterrenus, above the earth - superterrene is another English word, if you want one - 'superterrestrial' I think has more the sense of 'above earthly things' than 'above the (physical) earth', 'supermundane' even more so, which isn't really what you're looking for.

I think super- and supra- are close to synonymous, although my outdated shorter OED tells me the prefix supra-'s "meanings in English are for the most part parallel to, but in much less vogue than those of SUPER-, except in certain scientific uses" and my Latin dictionary says that compounds formed with supra- are very rare.

If you were willing to accept words of Greek derivation and limited utility, you could have hyperchthonic (above the earth), hypernephelic (above the clouds), and hyperuranian (above the heavens). I think only the last is an actual English word, but it's not my fault.

Intraterrestrial, for within or through the earth?

Or is that even a distinction that the Latin conception of terra allows for?

Terra is earth, (as opposed to water, fire, air) while mundus is the world (as opposed to the flesh and the devil) (and tellus is the earth (as opposed to the other planets) (also poetic for terra) and humus is the ground, the soil), so yeah, compounds formed from terra should work just fine. I would think.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

I like intraterrestrial, or perhaps, to be perverse, intraterranean. I don't have a thing in the world to do with that word, but I like it all the same.

I also adore hyperchthonic and hypernephelic. Those are just beautiful.

[rliz.livejournal.com]

"Hyperchthonic". Hee.

[renenet.livejournal.com]

Context...context...I think we were talking about a superterranean station of the London Underground. The Barbican station because you always forget it's above ground, h.l? Did one of us use the term? Oh, wait — I made up a word to describe the station and, because I'm careless with language and require so much looking after, you corrected my altogether incorrect choice of prefix. Then you started second-guessing the "super-" vs. "supra-" thing, and I declined to obsess over the unknown in my usual fashion. However, after D. looked it up unsuccessfully in the dictionary on his PDA, I did begin to pine generally for a portable electronic reference library — one that would obviously include the up-to-the-minute OED (they're adding the draft revisions and new entries for the Third Edition to the online OED quarterly, you know) — or, better yet, my own portable, hand-held device with globally available Internet access that would allow me to check all of the subscription databases to which I have access. Because this is how I am.

So, the OED satisfies my curiosity quite thoroughly. "Superterranean" is in there: That is or dwells above, or on the surface of, the earth; above-ground: opposed to subterranean. Also n., a dweller above ground or on the earth. Quotations refer to superterranean inhabitants, structures, chambers, etc. However, "supraterraneous" and "supraterrestrial" are also there, with pointers to the definitions of "superterraneous," and "superterrestrial," respectively. "Superterraneous" simply refers back to the def. for "superterranean." "Superterrestrial" has two meanings: 1. Existing, or belonging to a region, above the earth; celestial and 2. superterranean.

The comments on the "super-" and "supra-" prefixes and their uses go on for quite a little while. It's really quite edifying. But it boils down to what cija says above re: the relative popularities (unless you're into scientific terms, esp. in anatomy or zoology, "supra-" isn't especially common).

So, I'd say that while "superterranean" is probably our preferred term, "supraterranean" should also be considered an established construction given the presence of "supraterraneous" in the OED.

But everyone needs to keep talking about the Latin to answer all of Truepenny's questions.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

So why the frilly heck did HL ask me, if you already knew the answer?

I don't mind particularly, 'cause, hey! words!, but I do feel a little bit like an idiot asking a question on your behalf which you then answer.

[heresluck]

Well, in my defense, she didn't know the answer at the time -- we didn't have easy OED access in London -- and I had no idea she'd found the answer since; and in fact I suspect that she'd forgotten to look it up until you posted, although perhaps that's an uncharitable supposition on my part.

[renenet.livejournal.com]

Uncharitable? Not especially. True, yes. Although, in my defense (or, um, possibly not), I was never planning to look it up to begin with. Remember me cackling with glee in The Tube about how the need-to-know bug wasn't biting me on the ass about the question itself? That was me experiencing precious freedom from the research demons. Of course, now that I'm back with my tools and databases the temptation to look stuff up is just too great, esp. when the OED is as interesting and informative on the matter as it proved to be. But I had to be reminded of the very existence of the question. I hope it hasn't been keeping you up nights. ;)

[heresluck]

I hope it hasn't been keeping you up nights.

Not at all. I didn't remember it myself until a couple of days ago when I was entering the conversation about penguin consumption into the quote book. *g*

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you and Renenet actually share a brain. Because I know you don't.

[renenet.livejournal.com]

Erm...sorry? I didn't know the answer until this morning when I looked it up after I saw your post. It's the OED. It was right there. I couldn't help it. As for why h.l asked you, I assume that was because your name was invoked at the time of the incident as the person to ask about the whole "super-" vs. "supra-" issue in general, what with the Latin and everything. We're big fans of your enormous brain and consider it a research tool. I had completely forgotten about the question myself, though, I must confess.

Don't feel like an idiot. I'm quite sure we wouldn't consider your brain a research tool if you were an idiot.

[libskrat]

That's a T-shirt. "My Brain is a Research Tool."

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

This is your brain.

This is your brain on reasearch.

Answer your own questions.

[renenet.livejournal.com]

Oh, now that is a keeper.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Yes, but it'd be better if I'd spelled "research" correctly. Dammit.

[renenet.livejournal.com]

Quick! Before someone else comments, delete your comment and these replies and repost without the typo! And I'll repost my admiring reply. Only you, and cavlec, and I (oh, and anyone else who's been very actively following this post, I suppose) need ever know that you've edited history. ;)

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Yes, but there's something funny about me misspelling "research" right then that I think ought to be preserved.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Sorry. Excessive bitchiness. My fault.

[renenet.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't think you were bitchy. Or, if you were — I mean, if you were feeling bitchy when you said it — it was well within regular "and *why* were you wasting my time, exactly?" parameters, and that is a level of bitchiness that I quite encourage. And enjoy. :)

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Well, that's okay then.

Love the icon. :)