A tisket, a tasket, a queen's head in a basket.

[truepenny]

I have encountered a shining example of the moss-troll problem in the goblin book, viz. and to wit, the word "guillotine." Instead of merely brooding about it, I decided to burst into song make a poll.

[Poll #1506528]

Feel free to expound in the comments if you need to.


---
*From the Turkey City Lexicon:

“Call a Rabbit a Smeerp“

A cheap technique for false exoticism, in which common elements of the real world are re-named for a fantastic milieu without any real alteration in their basic nature or behavior. “Smeerps” are especially common in fantasy worlds, where people often ride exotic steeds that look and act just like horses. (Attributed to James Blish.)

Comments

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I would be more annoyed if the smeerp workaround was non-awesome, and less annoyed if it was awesome.

The other peril here is that if you don't call it a guillotine, I may imagine some other device with similar effects but rather more gruesome or exotic functioning. My brain is apparently terrible at taking the simple route to monkeys killing other monkeys. When I was small, it didn't occur to me that a person might kill another person by whacking them on the head with something heavy, and so when I was exposed to Clue the explanations I came up with for how you could kill someone with a wrench, a lead pipe, and a candlestick really get alarming when you consider I was 6 at the time.

[shadefell.livejournal.com]

I loved that you made up "sanguette." It added a lot to the world and the world building. But if you'd have used "guillotine" that would have made sense and not been obtrusive the way that "nyquil" would be obtrusive, maybe because "guillotines" are HISTORICAL or something.

[torrilin.livejournal.com]

In my head, most fantasy novels are written by authors who have translated the book from the original Dragaeran or what have you. So naturally the author-translator will pick the *right* English word unless the idea is as horrific to translate as auctoritas.

This leads to amusing issues, like realizing that the first edition text of Emily Post's *Etiquette* needs some fairly long translator's glosses... I've discovered I can hand chunks of it to people, and most of the time, they don't collapse into laughter. This is because they miss all the jokes due to being from the wrong culture.

[romsfuulynn.livejournal.com]

For me, the "it depends" answer has a lot to do with the nature of the fantasy world. Words do come with contexts - I have problems with the use of "sabotage" in pre-industrial settings, for example. But if you need a head chopping off device, then you need to decide one way or the other. For some reason it would work better for me if the social structure would be one that shares some of the same context as 18th century France. I really want to say a similar Weltanschauung would make it ok.

[tsubaki-ny.livejournal.com]

Heh -- had I read the word in a fantasy book that evoked the correct period (even if it were alternate-world), I would have simply skimmed over it and forgotten the etymology, even though I do know the story. However, I would then subconsciously see all the characters as French.

[pitselly.livejournal.com]

I think it'd depend, for me, on whether this Goblin world was mirroring France (queen's head?) or built with french references (like DoL was) or if it had less French worldbuilding wherein a Guillotine would be a wallbanger.

[mevincula.livejournal.com]

Language is important and both Halifax gibbet and Scottish maiden present geographic difficulties to use (unless it is an alternate history as opposed to alternate world). ON the other hand, the noun guillotine has superceded its origins as a proper name. Using it is comparable to using the words sandwich or cardigan -- which long ago discarded their respective earls. Nyquil is a different breed of word. It refers to a specific product in a specific era. Guillotine can be used in a variety of eras (the last execution use in France was in 1977) and even a variety of uses (bagel guillotine, kitchen guillotine, tonsil guillotine) or as a verb instead of a noun. The word has outgrown the doctor.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

TONSIL guillotine?!

[melonaise.livejournal.com]

I went and looked it up (http://www.surgicaltechnologists.net/blog/20-scary-old-school-surgical-tools). Scary.

[tsubaki-ny.livejournal.com]

The horrifying bit is how ornate a couple of the saws and speculums are...

[mevincula.livejournal.com]

um, those are really scary pictures. hernia tool - left in for a week? excuse me while I faint

[roisindubh211.livejournal.com]

I know! My little brother had a hernia twice when he was a small child- the fact that things like this exist make it so much scarier to remember.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

...

...

...

!!!!!

[halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I came across this instrument of torture defined and went to find pictures. ICK.

[saoba.livejournal.com]

And right about here is where I laughed loudly enough to be heard by the folks checking in across the hall.

Also, it is possible that before this poll I would have glossed over guillotine in a fantasy novel with only a brief twitch (duration determined by how engrossed`I was in the text). However comma thanks to this poll I would notice it for certain.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

This is more or less how I feel about it. (I was going to comment about sandwiches, had you not beaten me to it.)

I could be happy with a smeerp if it were good enough -- there's some grim humour in my mind to calling it a "severance" -- but it's damn hard to invent words for familiar things that will sound plausible enough not to jar.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Well, I have the added complication (note the value-neutral term) of the narrative being fairly saturated with a made-up language. Which--as these replies have helped make much clearer to me--means my answer is to invent the elvish word for guillotine and use that. Which I should probably have seen from the start, but the poll was more fun. *g*

[mevincula.livejournal.com]

it occurs to me that the word you might want is the German for guillotine, Fallbeil. the Nazis after all guillotined many more people (about 16,000) than the French Revolution ever did. (Hitler personally ordered 20 guillotines dispatched to the prisons).

and goblins seem so very Germanic to me ;)

[pixelfish.livejournal.com]

My brain went to "decapitus", although the "severance" could be used for things other than heads, so would be more general.

[pixelfish.livejournal.com]

Well, this is always a fun thing to worry about. I have mappa mundi used in a fantasy story about a cartographer, but like there just didn't seem to be a way to say "Map of the known world" that worked as well when referring to the thing.

My friend is dealing with a Smeerp issue right now. I think I'll point her to this discussion.

[ashnistrike.livejournal.com]

My answer was that yes, "guillotine" is old enough to no longer automatically invoke its origin, and that it is now simply the word for that type of object. Similarly, one can use the word "disaster" even if the secondary world has no astrology. Translated from the original Dragaeran, etc.

However, S says it depends on the kind of secondary world, and what kind of language one is using--and as you know, Bob, her attitudes toward words and etymology are much more synchronous with your own. She then expounded to me at length, which comment I will let her add herself when she gets to this post.

[celisnebula.livejournal.com]

It would depend on the story.

Automatically when someone says guillotine, I think of French revolutionaries - unhappy masses and blood soaked streets. But always with the idea of French nationals.

Then again, both the Scottish Maiden and Hailfax Gibbet conjure up images of their country of origin too. Perhaps just using the gibbet would be enough?

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

But a gibbet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbet) is something different. And since the sentence in question was specifically referring to the sharpness of the guillotine blade ...

[txanne.livejournal.com]

In that case, can you say "sharp as a headsman's sword"?

[celisnebula.livejournal.com]

True... for some reason, mentally I always see a gibbet as a structure with a blade, though mostly it was used for hanging things.

You could always use something along the lines of "as shape as the executioner's ax."

[ashnistrike.livejournal.com]

Actually, the only thing I feel the need to add is that I think it is worthwhile to distinguish between made-up words and neologisms. "Sanguette", for example, would be a neologism. "Ansible" is a made-up word. Both have their place, but made-up words need, I think, to be used with rather more care lest they become intrusive. I almost never find a well-turned neologism to be intrusive, but this may be one of those places where I'm odd. (I did not think that Anathem had too many neologisms, for reference.)

-Nameseeker

[renatus.livejournal.com]

Unless the made-up word fits perfectly into its world and is immediately understandable from context, I find them hideously obnoxious. Of course you need to take into account the cultural and historical baggage of a word before using it--a bad fit of existing word is just as bad as an awkward made-up one--but I really don't see any reason to essentially reinvent the wheel if there's a perfectly good existing word around.

Like torrilin, I read fantasy with the assumption that the concepts and speech in the story is being translated from the original, in which it makes sense to use existing words with the appropriate echo. (I can't imagine reading any other way; otherwise it's assuming that the fantasy world somehow operates in English, and that's... I don't even wanna go there.)

Then again, I have yet to read anything of yours with a made-up word that didn't fit just fine, so I don't know if my rambling is actually useful. *g*

[laylalawlor.livejournal.com]

You know, as someone who writes fantasy and SF, I think the big question isn't "could this *word* exist in their world" but rather "does this *object* exist in their world". A fantasy world doesn't have Nyquil (at least, I find it remarkably unlikely), but if it does have guillotines, I don't think the word would be jarring because that is simply the word that we use in English, and have used for 200-ish years, for such an object. You're translating their whole language anyway. It's the concept of Nyquil that's jarring and un-fantasy-ish, more than the word itself.

I'm sure there are uncommon exceptions to this (like, say, Bowdlerize - I think I'd balk at using that word; it's just too much of a culturally-specific neologism, even though a lot of languages probably utilize such a process), but I think that in general it's more important to go for the simpler word that is commonly understood by the English-speaking audience, as long as the concept being described would not be unfamiliar to your characters.

[hobbitblue.livejournal.com]

The level on which I am aware of the history of the word guillotine is not the same as the level on which I'll read the word, get the relevant mental image and continue enjoying the book. I think sometimes trying to avoid an obvious borrowing word in a made-up universe does make it stand out more, and certainly I'd pause to wonder what a halifax gibbet or a scottish maiden were (would presume the first to be a hangmans noose, the second to be a variation on the iron maiden). I have no problem with smeerps, done subtly. A recent trashy SF thing I read made such an effort to have fancy futuristic sex words it was ludicrous and intrusive.

[etrix.livejournal.com]

A recent trashy SF thing I read made such an effort to have fancy futuristic sex words it was ludicrous and intrusive.

I have to agree. I've had a couple books which I had to stop reading because I couldn't get beyond how forced the language was. It was too much work, and broke up the story too much, to keep translating the words to the images the writer had given them.

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

As already mentioned, I see "guillotine" and think "Madam Defarge" -- too much Real World cultural baggage.

But those slackard Younger Generation types never learned history, anyway, or read Dickens, so you're probably safe . . .

[redbird]

Depending on the details, and whether "they shouldn't have heard of that word" was a likely reaction, I'd probably recommend just "they cut $person's head off" and not specifying machinery versus axe or sword.

A friend of mine once carefully did not use the word "assassin" because, in a historical novel, he didn't think it was remotely likely Japan of the era he was writing about would have heard about the Hashishim, but a secondary world is a different set of constraints.

[grass-angel.livejournal.com]

I always tend to forget the etymology of 'guillotine'; I'm much more likely to be picky about how you pronounce it.
But I'd be mostly willing to suspend my belief and believe that the world you're working in has some France-equivalent somewhere in the background. An elaborate work around would work too, as long as it makes sense right away. ('Sanguette' worked for me because it contained 'sang', 'ette' and, above all, sounded French.)

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

It does seem that the device itself was independently invented at least twice, and the name we use for it came from a third go-round (probably not independent). So, it ought to be possible in secondary worlds with suitable tech and cultural attributes, if you want it to be.

I knew the origin of our name for it in the name of one of the inventors before doing research while reading your article, and not just vaguely; it came instantly to mind when asked about the history of the device. I suspect it's strongly tied to the French Revolution in the popular mind.

"Translation" problems in secondary-world fantasy, or ordinary SF for that matter, have no good answer; there's no commercially satisfactory (i.e. more than three people would read the book) logically consistent way to do it, I don't think; it has to be solved artistically. Mostly it doesn't bother me, except when it does (as with David Weber's parallel French Revolution on New Haven in the Honor Harrington books; and I kept reading those anyway).

[edschweppe.livejournal.com]

As long as the fantasy world traces back to this one, I wouldn't have much (or any) problem with the word "guillotine" showing up. Goblin Empire? That'd probably trip at least two WTF-ometer alarms:
1) What does a Goblin Empire need with an efficient, supposedly humane execution method?
2) Is "guillotine" a common Goblin Empire name?

Also, Hailfax Gibbet? (Still preferable to Scottish Maiden, unless slurs against Scotland are intended. Which, depending on the story, may in fact be the intent.)

[azdak.livejournal.com]

I think a made-up term for guillotine would definitely be a smeerp. The word guillotine has moved far from its origins to become the neutral English term for that particular device for beheading people (and for various other tools that have a falling blade, like a paper guillotine). If I read that the Chinese had started guillotining condemned criminals, I should be horrified, but I wouldn't think "Huh, guillotine, that's French, why is that word being used for a Chinese execution?" And similarly if I read about an invented world having a guillotine, I wouldn't wonder why that word was being used when there had never been a Dr Guillotine, any more than I would wonder why a sword was called a sword when the world had never had any Germanic speakers in it. It's not like the Nyquil example, where the world in question doesn't have that kind of drug, let alone that brand name, because the device manfiestly exists in Goblinland.

If you're going to use a made-up name, I think you should also make up the device it refers to, otherwise it really is a smeerp.

[tesseract-5.livejournal.com]

I realize I've been reading Sanguette as Sanguinette this entire time. Ooops.

[etrix.livejournal.com]

As a Canadian, Halifax, as a town name, has a different connotation. I don't automatically think of its namesake city back in the Old Country but rather the one on the far side of my country that blew up in WWI and inspired the scientists who worked on the atomic bomb. (The mind makes weird connections.)

The nice thing about the word guillotine is that it doesn't bring up images of anything but a guillotine, it's not in common usage (as we no longer execute people with them) and it looks like it could be made up.

It would have to be a pretty fantastic workaround, one that didn't make me search my brain each time I saw the smeerp to remind myself of what that word meant.

[lebannen.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I'm British and it seems more likely that people here would think of the Halifax (http://www.halifax.co.uk/home/home.asp) first, rather than any place (one has a large television advertising presence and regularly gets in the news for being part of the failing HBoS group, the others aren't and don't....). But I thought of the Canadian one first too because I am clearly weird.

[smills47.livejournal.com]

If you really wanted to avoid "guillotine," you could just be literal and call it a Headlopper, or Neckslicer, owtte.

Bit o' trivia: Re Scottish Maiden, I believe the "pretty maids all in a row" in the nursery rhyme are meant to refer to that device.

[etherealfionna.livejournal.com]

Could you give it a nickname instead? I can't find a nickname for lethal injection (after oooh, a whole two minutes googling) but most other forms of capital punishment had their own pretty gruesome nicks.

[minerva710.livejournal.com]

I know I'm a bit late to this conversation and it's probably case closed by now, but I selected the "you can do better" option. Even though guillotine wouldn't bother me enough to knock me out of reading, I don't think you do smeerps- you (seem like you) would methodically think through the influences and name it something appropriate to the culture. Unless it's exactly like a guillotine, with a similar reason for existence, I think something like the Scottish Maiden is more evocative, like Mildmay's offhand mention of his stories.

FWIW, the sanguette and sanger-man examples in DoL made me think of hanging or racking initially, possibly because I'm stupid, but also because something like a guillotine, designed to be humane, seemed out of place in a society that uses burning alive on someone like Zephyr and executes children. I got it straight after a while, but even then I still thought of something that was, in some unexplained way, crueler or darker than if it were exactly like a guillotine (which I would identify immediately).