AKICILJ, Prince of Wales edition

[truepenny]

I have a question which I just realized I don't know the answer to. It's spoilery for the first chapter of The Goblin Emperor--although it isn't anything that won't be equally evident from the dust jacket copy--so I shall put it behind a cut-tag.


I'm going to use an analogy, because it's much easier to explain than making you learn all these imaginary titles. Let's take an imaginary English king--Henry XX, say. Henry has two sons, Mortimer and Bernard.

Q1: My understanding is that Mortimer is Prince of Wales as the heir to the throne. Is the title contingent on his being the heir, or is his heirdom subordinate to his status as elder son?

Q2: Say Mortimer and Bernard both make it to adulthood. Mortimer marries and has a son, whom we shall call Edgar. Bernard is unmarried and has no progeny. Now, both Henry XX and Mortimer are killed--trampled by the enormous war-rhino from 300, although that's not relevant. Bernard becomes king. My question is about Edgar. Edgar's the heir to the throne. Does that mean he's the Prince of Wales?

Q3: If he is the Prince of Wales, does he stop being the Prince of Wales when Bernard, having hastily married, has a legitimate son (we'll call him Lucas)? Or does Edgar continue to be Prince of Wales, and Lucas becomes Duke of Clarence or York or whichever dukedom is next up in the hopper?

Q4: If Edgar ceases to be Prince of Wales--or is never Prince of Wales in the first place--does he get a royal dukedom? Or is he now just the king's nephew?

Q5: And while we're on the subject, what about Mortimer's widow Hortense? Is she still Princess of Wales after his death? If she is, does she continue to be the Princess of Wales, when, as in Q3 above, Lucas is born? Does she become the Dowager Princess of Wales at some point, and if so, when? When Mortimer dies? When Lucas is born? When Edgar marries? When Lucas marries?


It's all very confusing. o.O

ETA: In fact, it's so confusing I've got it wrong. (Elves and goblins apparently do not follow the same laws of primogeniture that the English do.) My analogy doesn't work, which means I don't have a real world model to follow or not follow as the whim takes me. It's all down to whim.

Thank you very much to everyone who has helped unmuddle my muddle.

Comments

[starlady38.livejournal.com]

Wow, I can answer some of this.

First off, Prince of Wales is not an automatically passing title; it's subordinate to the heir apparent being the heir apparent, and has to be recreated when said heir is formally invested as Prince of Wales (the inherited title for the heir apparent in Britain is actually Duke of Cornwall, which is why Camilla atm is HRH the Duchess of Cornwall but not Princess of Wales; Charles is both PoW and Duke of Cornwall). So there have been times when male heirs apparent inherited the throne without being Prince of Wales, and iirc no female heir apparent was ever created Princess of Wales in her own right. So in answer to Q1, Mortimer is PoW as heir, not heir as PoW.

Q2: Edgar is heir apparent, but only PoW if he has been created such (usually upon attaining majority).

Q3: He's not PoW, but if he were, Bernard's marriage and/or issue would have no bearing on his rank as PoW.

Q4: I thought you said Edgar was Mortimer's son. Edgar would therefore inherit the throne, not Bernard or Bernard's issue. But if Edgar were somehow disinvested as PoW, he would still be Duke of Cornwall or the equivalent automatically inherited title.

Q5: I think Hortense would probably continue to be Princess of Wales until her son Edgar was formally invested as Prince of Wales, in which case she would become Dowager Princess. And when Edgar became King I think she would continue to be the Dowager Princess, since her husband had never been king and therefore she had never been queen and could not be the Queen Mother.

[starlady38.livejournal.com]

More on Q4: Oh, I forgot about this Lucas kid. But still, Lucas' existence has no bearing on Edgar's ranks and titles. Lucas would inherit his father's ranks and titles upon Bernard's death (definitely a royal dukedom), but Edgar would remain Prince of Wales if he had been created as such, and heir apparent and a royal duke regardless.

Q5: Again, Lucas is irrelevant to Hortense's ranks and titles.