AKICILJ, Prince of Wales edition

[truepenny]

I have a question which I just realized I don't know the answer to. It's spoilery for the first chapter of The Goblin Emperor--although it isn't anything that won't be equally evident from the dust jacket copy--so I shall put it behind a cut-tag.


I'm going to use an analogy, because it's much easier to explain than making you learn all these imaginary titles. Let's take an imaginary English king--Henry XX, say. Henry has two sons, Mortimer and Bernard.

Q1: My understanding is that Mortimer is Prince of Wales as the heir to the throne. Is the title contingent on his being the heir, or is his heirdom subordinate to his status as elder son?

Q2: Say Mortimer and Bernard both make it to adulthood. Mortimer marries and has a son, whom we shall call Edgar. Bernard is unmarried and has no progeny. Now, both Henry XX and Mortimer are killed--trampled by the enormous war-rhino from 300, although that's not relevant. Bernard becomes king. My question is about Edgar. Edgar's the heir to the throne. Does that mean he's the Prince of Wales?

Q3: If he is the Prince of Wales, does he stop being the Prince of Wales when Bernard, having hastily married, has a legitimate son (we'll call him Lucas)? Or does Edgar continue to be Prince of Wales, and Lucas becomes Duke of Clarence or York or whichever dukedom is next up in the hopper?

Q4: If Edgar ceases to be Prince of Wales--or is never Prince of Wales in the first place--does he get a royal dukedom? Or is he now just the king's nephew?

Q5: And while we're on the subject, what about Mortimer's widow Hortense? Is she still Princess of Wales after his death? If she is, does she continue to be the Princess of Wales, when, as in Q3 above, Lucas is born? Does she become the Dowager Princess of Wales at some point, and if so, when? When Mortimer dies? When Lucas is born? When Edgar marries? When Lucas marries?


It's all very confusing. o.O

ETA: In fact, it's so confusing I've got it wrong. (Elves and goblins apparently do not follow the same laws of primogeniture that the English do.) My analogy doesn't work, which means I don't have a real world model to follow or not follow as the whim takes me. It's all down to whim.

Thank you very much to everyone who has helped unmuddle my muddle.

Comments

[kate_nepveu]

trampled by the enormous war-rhino from 300, although that's not relevant

I think this is always relevant!

[jazzfish]

No answers to most of your questions, I'm afraid; just a quibble with Q2: "Bernard becomes King."

Does he? The real-world situation that comes to mind is Edward III, who outlived his son (Edward the Black Prince) and whose crown passed to his grandson (Richard II) on his death. John of Gaunt (the Bernard analogue) was regent but not king.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly: you can decide that he does become king, but in that case you are not using the system England used and can make up what else happens as you like.

When Edward VIII abdicated, he did not reclaim any of his previous titles, but instead got a new one. In case that's relevant.

[marypcb.livejournal.com]

there is current discussion about whether the succession will skip Charles and go on to William if her madge hangs on much longer ;-)

Who's Got the Rhino?

[warriorofworry.livejournal.com]

They all went to war with each other, of course. (Have lots of fun with this, please. I'm looking forward to your resolution!)

[sbisson.livejournal.com]

Actually it's more complicated. So...

Q1. The heir to the throne does not have to be the Prince of Wales - it's a title invested by the monarch. So while Mortimer is the heir he doesn't have to be the PoW.

Q2. No, he becomes king at the death of Henry and Mortimer.

Q3. As soon as Edgar is born Bernard drops to third in line to the throne (joys of primogeniture). So Lucas would only be PoW if Edgar gives him the title. There is no hopper of ranks - all titles are either directly inherited or are invested by the monarch.

Q4. It's up to the King. It's likely that once Edgar was born that Bernard would have been given a hereditary title, but again, that's really up to Henry...

Q5. Yes, she'd probably keep the title, unless it was specifically removed by the monarch, which is one reason why Lucas is unlikely to be PoW.

Ah, the joys of the feudal system. It all really boils down to the "one man, one vote" system. The king is the man, and he has the vote.

[starlady38.livejournal.com]

Wow, I can answer some of this.

First off, Prince of Wales is not an automatically passing title; it's subordinate to the heir apparent being the heir apparent, and has to be recreated when said heir is formally invested as Prince of Wales (the inherited title for the heir apparent in Britain is actually Duke of Cornwall, which is why Camilla atm is HRH the Duchess of Cornwall but not Princess of Wales; Charles is both PoW and Duke of Cornwall). So there have been times when male heirs apparent inherited the throne without being Prince of Wales, and iirc no female heir apparent was ever created Princess of Wales in her own right. So in answer to Q1, Mortimer is PoW as heir, not heir as PoW.

Q2: Edgar is heir apparent, but only PoW if he has been created such (usually upon attaining majority).

Q3: He's not PoW, but if he were, Bernard's marriage and/or issue would have no bearing on his rank as PoW.

Q4: I thought you said Edgar was Mortimer's son. Edgar would therefore inherit the throne, not Bernard or Bernard's issue. But if Edgar were somehow disinvested as PoW, he would still be Duke of Cornwall or the equivalent automatically inherited title.

Q5: I think Hortense would probably continue to be Princess of Wales until her son Edgar was formally invested as Prince of Wales, in which case she would become Dowager Princess. And when Edgar became King I think she would continue to be the Dowager Princess, since her husband had never been king and therefore she had never been queen and could not be the Queen Mother.

[starlady38.livejournal.com]

More on Q4: Oh, I forgot about this Lucas kid. But still, Lucas' existence has no bearing on Edgar's ranks and titles. Lucas would inherit his father's ranks and titles upon Bernard's death (definitely a royal dukedom), but Edgar would remain Prince of Wales if he had been created as such, and heir apparent and a royal duke regardless.

Q5: Again, Lucas is irrelevant to Hortense's ranks and titles.

still not King

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, the analogy doesn't work, because in the real world, Edgar would be King. Bernard might be his regent.

In a fantasy kingdom, of course, you can arrange it so that sons inherit before grandsons, but at that point, just do whatever the hell is most convenient for you or inconvenient for the characters with the titles. because you've abandoned your English model of primogeniture.

[ckd]

Caveat: this is checked via Wikipedia, so add appropriate levels of skepticism. It sounds right to me, though.

PoW is given to the heir apparent, only; that is, one who cannot be "trumped" by another birth. The eldest son is, naturally, the heir apparent under a male primogeniture system.

Q1: the title is contingent on his being the heir *in a way which the elder son is*.
Q2: I think Edgar would actually be king at that point, since the senior line is not extinguished; there would be no Prince of Wales as the heir presumptive (Bernard) can be pushed lower in the succession.
Q3: See above; Edgar is king, Bernard is heir presumptive, nobody's the PoW.
Q4: He's the king.
Q5: not sure on these.

[leaina.livejournal.com]

My answers are based on a lovely little book called Titles and Forms of Address: A Guide to Their Correct Use (14th edition, Adam & Charles Black, London 1971). Highly recommended.

Q1: I believe that Prince of Wales is a courtesy title (that is, a lesser title belonging to a greater title). In which case, it belongs not to the heir to the throne, but to the eldest son of the King. So Henry XX, King of England, is also styled Prince of Wales before he has any children, but when Mortimer is born he becomes Prince of Wales.

Q2: In traditional succession, if Henry and Mortimer are killed, Edgar becomes king (not Bernard). Of course, if Edgar is in his minority (I'm not sure what the age of majority is), then he would have some advisers or perhaps a regent, which probably would include his uncle Bernard. Bernard would be the heir to the throne (until Edgar has a child), but he would not be the Prince of Wales, since he is not the current king's eldest son. If Bernard did usurp the throne and become king, Edgar would immediately cease to be Prince of Wales; Bernard would have that as one of his titles until he had a son to take it.

Q3: Already answered above. If Bernard usurps the throne and has a son, most likely Edgar goes to the Tower, or some isolated house in the country, and conveniently disappears. :)

Q4: Answered above. Edgar is either King or persona non grata with the usurper. He could be made a duke or something if Bernard is feeling generous, but I suspect that is unlikely.

Q5: Hortense remains Princess of Wales after Mortimer's death. Here are the rules about dowagers: "A dowager peeress is the earliest surviving widow of a preceding holder of the title, irrespective of her relationship to the existing holder. She may thus be mother, grandmother, aunt, great-aunt, etc." and "If the existing peer has no wife, the widow of his predecessor usually prefers to be addressed as if her husband were still alive ..." (p. 40) In other words, she becomes the Dowager Princess of Wales at the death of her husband, but she can sort of pretend not to be the dowager as long as there's no real Princess of Wales (i.e. until Lucas marries, if he's the current Prince of Wales).

[batwrangler.livejournal.com]

I'm just glad Hortense didn't also get trampled by the rhino so that Edgar wasn't stuck in the care of his wicked aunts.

[adelynne.livejournal.com]

People have mostly got this explained before me, so I'll add what I know of how they're styled. Upon investment as such, Mortimer would be styled "The Prince Mortimer, The Prince of Wales." His wife would be "The Princess Hortense, The Princess of Wales," and his son would be "Prince Edgar of Wales." So while not *the* Prince of Wales, his father's investment makes Edgar "of Wales."

Should Mortimer die before becoming king, Hortense retains the right to use the title she held while he was alive, with "dowager" appended. So she would be "The Princess Hortense, The Dowager Princess of Wales."

question

[(Anonymous)]

1) I do not know how PoW works - people have listed the two possible ways under English monarchy. It is either 1) an invested title, that would then stay with the person so invested regardless of whether they were heir or not or 2) it is one of those elder son titles. (With English peerage, if a peer has lesser titles - say he's the Duke of X and the Count of Y, the eldest son goes around as Count of Y.) Don't know which. Make your own rule!

2) As many people have pointed out, under English law, Edgar is King. And Prince of Wales, regardless of which of the above rules applies to the PoW. If its invested, he's got it back again as King and Mortimer's son and if it's inherited and going to Mortimer as oldest son, he's got it absent any sons of his own. (Not all kingdoms work this way. I know Jordan doesn't. Again, you can make your own rule!)

3) Edgar is King and PoW.

4) Yeah, I figure Prince of Wales is such a title because Wales is a principality (as opposed to a prince or princess title that just means "child of king"). That makes Mrs. Mortimer Princess of Wales until there's a Mrs. Edgar, at which point Mrs. Mortimer would be Dowager Princess of Wales.

Under English law, Claudius would have been usurping Hamlet. Also, under under English law, Miraz would have been usurping Caspian (except who knows how that worked, what with sibling co-monarchs). The same rule applied to the French, which is why Loius XIV's grandson inherited after his death. (Richard II inherited after his grandfather Edward III died, because his father, Edward the Black Prince, had predeceased Edward III. Edward III had something like FIVE living sons, who were the Black Prince's brothers, and none of them inherited. One of their sons, Henry Bollingbroke (sp?), was the one who overthrew and killed his cousin Richard II to become Henry IV. Arguably sparking the war of the roses between Henry IV's descendants the Lancasters and the Yorks, who were descended from another of the Black Prince's brothers.)

But, like I said, I know the rules are different in non-European countries.