AKICILJ, Prince of Wales edition
Jan. 29th, 2010 02:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
truepennyI have a question which I just realized I don't know the answer to. It's spoilery for the first chapter of The Goblin Emperor--although it isn't anything that won't be equally evident from the dust jacket copy--so I shall put it behind a cut-tag.
I'm going to use an analogy, because it's much easier to explain than making you learn all these imaginary titles. Let's take an imaginary English king--Henry XX, say. Henry has two sons, Mortimer and Bernard.
Q1: My understanding is that Mortimer is Prince of Wales as the heir to the throne. Is the title contingent on his being the heir, or is his heirdom subordinate to his status as elder son?
Q2: Say Mortimer and Bernard both make it to adulthood. Mortimer marries and has a son, whom we shall call Edgar. Bernard is unmarried and has no progeny. Now, both Henry XX and Mortimer are killed--trampled by the enormous war-rhino from 300, although that's not relevant. Bernard becomes king. My question is about Edgar. Edgar's the heir to the throne. Does that mean he's the Prince of Wales?
Q3: If he is the Prince of Wales, does he stop being the Prince of Wales when Bernard, having hastily married, has a legitimate son (we'll call him Lucas)? Or does Edgar continue to be Prince of Wales, and Lucas becomes Duke of Clarence or York or whichever dukedom is next up in the hopper?
Q4: If Edgar ceases to be Prince of Wales--or is never Prince of Wales in the first place--does he get a royal dukedom? Or is he now just the king's nephew?
Q5: And while we're on the subject, what about Mortimer's widow Hortense? Is she still Princess of Wales after his death? If she is, does she continue to be the Princess of Wales, when, as in Q3 above, Lucas is born? Does she become the Dowager Princess of Wales at some point, and if so, when? When Mortimer dies? When Lucas is born? When Edgar marries? When Lucas marries?
It's all very confusing. o.O
ETA: In fact, it's so confusing I've got it wrong. (Elves and goblins apparently do not follow the same laws of primogeniture that the English do.) My analogy doesn't work, which means I don't have a real world model to follow or not follow as the whim takes me. It's all down to whim.
Thank you very much to everyone who has helped unmuddle my muddle.
I'm going to use an analogy, because it's much easier to explain than making you learn all these imaginary titles. Let's take an imaginary English king--Henry XX, say. Henry has two sons, Mortimer and Bernard.
Q1: My understanding is that Mortimer is Prince of Wales as the heir to the throne. Is the title contingent on his being the heir, or is his heirdom subordinate to his status as elder son?
Q2: Say Mortimer and Bernard both make it to adulthood. Mortimer marries and has a son, whom we shall call Edgar. Bernard is unmarried and has no progeny. Now, both Henry XX and Mortimer are killed--trampled by the enormous war-rhino from 300, although that's not relevant. Bernard becomes king. My question is about Edgar. Edgar's the heir to the throne. Does that mean he's the Prince of Wales?
Q3: If he is the Prince of Wales, does he stop being the Prince of Wales when Bernard, having hastily married, has a legitimate son (we'll call him Lucas)? Or does Edgar continue to be Prince of Wales, and Lucas becomes Duke of Clarence or York or whichever dukedom is next up in the hopper?
Q4: If Edgar ceases to be Prince of Wales--or is never Prince of Wales in the first place--does he get a royal dukedom? Or is he now just the king's nephew?
Q5: And while we're on the subject, what about Mortimer's widow Hortense? Is she still Princess of Wales after his death? If she is, does she continue to be the Princess of Wales, when, as in Q3 above, Lucas is born? Does she become the Dowager Princess of Wales at some point, and if so, when? When Mortimer dies? When Lucas is born? When Edgar marries? When Lucas marries?
It's all very confusing. o.O
ETA: In fact, it's so confusing I've got it wrong. (Elves and goblins apparently do not follow the same laws of primogeniture that the English do.) My analogy doesn't work, which means I don't have a real world model to follow or not follow as the whim takes me. It's all down to whim.
Thank you very much to everyone who has helped unmuddle my muddle.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-01-29 09:36 pm (UTC)Q1: I believe that Prince of Wales is a courtesy title (that is, a lesser title belonging to a greater title). In which case, it belongs not to the heir to the throne, but to the eldest son of the King. So Henry XX, King of England, is also styled Prince of Wales before he has any children, but when Mortimer is born he becomes Prince of Wales.
Q2: In traditional succession, if Henry and Mortimer are killed, Edgar becomes king (not Bernard). Of course, if Edgar is in his minority (I'm not sure what the age of majority is), then he would have some advisers or perhaps a regent, which probably would include his uncle Bernard. Bernard would be the heir to the throne (until Edgar has a child), but he would not be the Prince of Wales, since he is not the current king's eldest son. If Bernard did usurp the throne and become king, Edgar would immediately cease to be Prince of Wales; Bernard would have that as one of his titles until he had a son to take it.
Q3: Already answered above. If Bernard usurps the throne and has a son, most likely Edgar goes to the Tower, or some isolated house in the country, and conveniently disappears. :)
Q4: Answered above. Edgar is either King or persona non grata with the usurper. He could be made a duke or something if Bernard is feeling generous, but I suspect that is unlikely.
Q5: Hortense remains Princess of Wales after Mortimer's death. Here are the rules about dowagers: "A dowager peeress is the earliest surviving widow of a preceding holder of the title, irrespective of her relationship to the existing holder. She may thus be mother, grandmother, aunt, great-aunt, etc." and "If the existing peer has no wife, the widow of his predecessor usually prefers to be addressed as if her husband were still alive ..." (p. 40) In other words, she becomes the Dowager Princess of Wales at the death of her husband, but she can sort of pretend not to be the dowager as long as there's no real Princess of Wales (i.e. until Lucas marries, if he's the current Prince of Wales).