AKICILJ, Prince of Wales edition
Jan. 29th, 2010 02:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
truepennyI have a question which I just realized I don't know the answer to. It's spoilery for the first chapter of The Goblin Emperor--although it isn't anything that won't be equally evident from the dust jacket copy--so I shall put it behind a cut-tag.
I'm going to use an analogy, because it's much easier to explain than making you learn all these imaginary titles. Let's take an imaginary English king--Henry XX, say. Henry has two sons, Mortimer and Bernard.
Q1: My understanding is that Mortimer is Prince of Wales as the heir to the throne. Is the title contingent on his being the heir, or is his heirdom subordinate to his status as elder son?
Q2: Say Mortimer and Bernard both make it to adulthood. Mortimer marries and has a son, whom we shall call Edgar. Bernard is unmarried and has no progeny. Now, both Henry XX and Mortimer are killed--trampled by the enormous war-rhino from 300, although that's not relevant. Bernard becomes king. My question is about Edgar. Edgar's the heir to the throne. Does that mean he's the Prince of Wales?
Q3: If he is the Prince of Wales, does he stop being the Prince of Wales when Bernard, having hastily married, has a legitimate son (we'll call him Lucas)? Or does Edgar continue to be Prince of Wales, and Lucas becomes Duke of Clarence or York or whichever dukedom is next up in the hopper?
Q4: If Edgar ceases to be Prince of Wales--or is never Prince of Wales in the first place--does he get a royal dukedom? Or is he now just the king's nephew?
Q5: And while we're on the subject, what about Mortimer's widow Hortense? Is she still Princess of Wales after his death? If she is, does she continue to be the Princess of Wales, when, as in Q3 above, Lucas is born? Does she become the Dowager Princess of Wales at some point, and if so, when? When Mortimer dies? When Lucas is born? When Edgar marries? When Lucas marries?
It's all very confusing. o.O
ETA: In fact, it's so confusing I've got it wrong. (Elves and goblins apparently do not follow the same laws of primogeniture that the English do.) My analogy doesn't work, which means I don't have a real world model to follow or not follow as the whim takes me. It's all down to whim.
Thank you very much to everyone who has helped unmuddle my muddle.
I'm going to use an analogy, because it's much easier to explain than making you learn all these imaginary titles. Let's take an imaginary English king--Henry XX, say. Henry has two sons, Mortimer and Bernard.
Q1: My understanding is that Mortimer is Prince of Wales as the heir to the throne. Is the title contingent on his being the heir, or is his heirdom subordinate to his status as elder son?
Q2: Say Mortimer and Bernard both make it to adulthood. Mortimer marries and has a son, whom we shall call Edgar. Bernard is unmarried and has no progeny. Now, both Henry XX and Mortimer are killed--trampled by the enormous war-rhino from 300, although that's not relevant. Bernard becomes king. My question is about Edgar. Edgar's the heir to the throne. Does that mean he's the Prince of Wales?
Q3: If he is the Prince of Wales, does he stop being the Prince of Wales when Bernard, having hastily married, has a legitimate son (we'll call him Lucas)? Or does Edgar continue to be Prince of Wales, and Lucas becomes Duke of Clarence or York or whichever dukedom is next up in the hopper?
Q4: If Edgar ceases to be Prince of Wales--or is never Prince of Wales in the first place--does he get a royal dukedom? Or is he now just the king's nephew?
Q5: And while we're on the subject, what about Mortimer's widow Hortense? Is she still Princess of Wales after his death? If she is, does she continue to be the Princess of Wales, when, as in Q3 above, Lucas is born? Does she become the Dowager Princess of Wales at some point, and if so, when? When Mortimer dies? When Lucas is born? When Edgar marries? When Lucas marries?
It's all very confusing. o.O
ETA: In fact, it's so confusing I've got it wrong. (Elves and goblins apparently do not follow the same laws of primogeniture that the English do.) My analogy doesn't work, which means I don't have a real world model to follow or not follow as the whim takes me. It's all down to whim.
Thank you very much to everyone who has helped unmuddle my muddle.
question
Date: 2010-01-29 10:33 pm (UTC)2) As many people have pointed out, under English law, Edgar is King. And Prince of Wales, regardless of which of the above rules applies to the PoW. If its invested, he's got it back again as King and Mortimer's son and if it's inherited and going to Mortimer as oldest son, he's got it absent any sons of his own. (Not all kingdoms work this way. I know Jordan doesn't. Again, you can make your own rule!)
3) Edgar is King and PoW.
4) Yeah, I figure Prince of Wales is such a title because Wales is a principality (as opposed to a prince or princess title that just means "child of king"). That makes Mrs. Mortimer Princess of Wales until there's a Mrs. Edgar, at which point Mrs. Mortimer would be Dowager Princess of Wales.
Under English law, Claudius would have been usurping Hamlet. Also, under under English law, Miraz would have been usurping Caspian (except who knows how that worked, what with sibling co-monarchs). The same rule applied to the French, which is why Loius XIV's grandson inherited after his death. (Richard II inherited after his grandfather Edward III died, because his father, Edward the Black Prince, had predeceased Edward III. Edward III had something like FIVE living sons, who were the Black Prince's brothers, and none of them inherited. One of their sons, Henry Bollingbroke (sp?), was the one who overthrew and killed his cousin Richard II to become Henry IV. Arguably sparking the war of the roses between Henry IV's descendants the Lancasters and the Yorks, who were descended from another of the Black Prince's brothers.)
But, like I said, I know the rules are different in non-European countries.